F-150 Lightning to gain access to Tesla Superchargers! Get standard NACS port starting 2025!

[Amps]

Not 100% clear at this point. Farley says “everyone gets one” on interviews the notification on FordPass App says “pricing and availability coming soon”

I agree with unclear, but he said, “We’re gonna ship an adapter to everyone who’s bought a Ford EV…,” in this interview at 4:30.

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[chl]

Absolutely. I'm sure they'll sell both for a little while, until the demand for the older chargers dries up.

Here's one wrinkle Ford needs to resolve:

The Ford Charge Station Pro and the Lightning apparently communicate via BlueTooth and don't use the built-in communications that both CCS and NACS (ISO 15118) provide over wire (the CCS or NACS charge cable) when using the set up as V2H. Why? Who knows.

Apparently some people have had the Lightning drop the BlueTooth connection during powering their house randomly. There is supposed to be a software fix for that - maybe already implemented?

But the Lightning must use ISO 15118 when using public charging stations, eh?

So why not use it for V2H? Go figure.

ISO 15118 is an international standard that defines a communication protocol between EVs and charge stations. The protocol enables plug & charge capability, wherein authorisation to start charging is triggered simply by connecting a vehicle to a charger. It is recognised as an important contributing factor to accelerate EV adoption, as plug & charge greatly simplifies EV driver’s charging experience.

ISO 15118 also enables bi-directional EV charging, otherwise known as vehicle-to-grid (V2G). With V2G, electric vehicles will be able to feed energy back to the grid when needed, thus helping reduce costly system peaks and ensuring a more intelligent, reliable grid.

Another question I have: Ford states the Lightning with the extended range battery has a maximum charging rate of 155kWh and the Tesla V3 Superchargers support 250kWh charge rate. So will the future Ford Lightnings be able to take advantage of the faster DC charge rate?

Right now at a Tesla Supercharger, there is that issue and the fact that the Supercharger cable is too short - so Ford needs to relocate the charge port when they go to NACS.

" ...Besides having trouble reaching the charge port with the short Supercharger cable, the charging session went off perfectly. Using the app is very simple, and the vehicle connected and began charging very quickly. ...We charged the F-150 Lightning from 25% to 80% in multiple charging sessions and the charging rate started out at 125 kW and peaked at 128 kW before lowering to 115 kW at 80% state of charge. That's not as high a charge rate as we see with the Lightning on Electrify America or EVgo stations, but with such a flat charging curve from 25% to 80%, it would probably only take about 5 minutes longer to charge on a Tesla Supercharger than it does on the other networks. "

https://insideevs.com/news/655138/tesla-magic-dock-supercharger-review/

Progress, but with some bumps in the road to iron out.

 

[IdeaOfTheDayCom]

Here's one wrinkle Ford needs to resolve:

The Ford Charge Station Pro and the Lightning apparently communicate via BlueTooth and don't use the built-in communications that both CCS and NACS (ISO 15118) provide over wire (the CCS or NACS charge cable) when using the set up as V2H. Why? Who knows.

Apparently some people have had the Lightning drop the BlueTooth connection during powering their house randomly. There is supposed to be a software fix for that - maybe already implemented?

But the Lightning must use ISO 15118 when using public charging stations, eh?

So why not use it for V2H? Go figure.

ISO 15118 is an international standard that defines a communication protocol between EVs and charge stations. The protocol enables plug & charge capability, wherein authorisation to start charging is triggered simply by connecting a vehicle to a charger. It is recognised as an important contributing factor to accelerate EV adoption, as plug & charge greatly simplifies EV driver’s charging experience.

ISO 15118 also enables bi-directional EV charging, otherwise known as vehicle-to-grid (V2G). With V2G, electric vehicles will be able to feed energy back to the grid when needed, thus helping reduce costly system peaks and ensuring a more intelligent, reliable grid.

Another question I have: Ford states the Lightning with the extended range battery has a maximum charging rate of 155kWh and the Tesla V3 Superchargers support 250kWh charge rate. So will the future Ford Lightnings be able to take advantage of the faster DC charge rate?

Right now at a Tesla Supercharger, there is that issue and the fact that the Supercharger cable is too short - so Ford needs to relocate the charge port when they go to NACS.

" ...Besides having trouble reaching the charge port with the short Supercharger cable, the charging session went off perfectly. Using the app is very simple, and the vehicle connected and began charging very quickly. ...We charged the F-150 Lightning from 25% to 80% in multiple charging sessions and the charging rate started out at 125 kW and peaked at 128 kW before lowering to 115 kW at 80% state of charge. That's not as high a charge rate as we see with the Lightning on Electrify America or EVgo stations, but with such a flat charging curve from 25% to 80%, it would probably only take about 5 minutes longer to charge on a Tesla Supercharger than it does on the other networks. "

https://insideevs.com/news/655138/tesla-magic-dock-supercharger-review/

Progress, but with some bumps in the road to iron out.

They definitely have a lot of loose ends to tie up, especially the unique way they used the DC CCS plug as a way to return power to a home or the grid. I’m guessing the NASCS has a way to make this possible too, but since Tesla has never offered the feature it was never talked about.

What excites me most is that Ford is fully embracing the new standard and that should lead to other companies following the standard. I’ve always hated that more than 50% of the charging locations I would see on maps like PlugShare were not CCS. When I make a long trip, I just want to pull up to the nearest charging station without thinking about what kind of plug it has.

The adapters will mean we immediately get to use nearly every charger except CHAdeMO, which I rarely see anyway.

 

[Amps]

built-in communications that both CCS and NACS (ISO 15118) provide over wire (the CCS or NACS charge cable) when using the set up as V2H. Why? Who knows.

The final ISO 15118 standard, mainly finalizing the V2X portion, was adopted in 2022. It had not been finalized when the FCSP HBP (V2H) was designed/released. On this forum, we were hoping that ISO 15118 would adopt Ford's existing implementation of V2H or make it backwards compatible. Only Ford knows if it is something that is possible with an FCSP software update. AFAIK, Lightning's P&C is 15118 compliant. That portion of the standard was adopted years ago.

Tesla announced compliance with the ISO 15118 P&C chapter in November 2022 when they opened up their Tesla proprietary to become NACS. Tesla did not announce ISO 15118 compliance with V2X in November 2022. They published that NACS is V2X compatible–with no reference to ISO 15118– with specifications coming in the future.

 

[Amps]

Right now at a Tesla Supercharger, there is that issue and the fact that the Supercharger cable is too short - so Ford needs to relocate the charge port when they go to NACS.

This issue should be resolved with V4 SuC's longer cables and/or a rollout of replacement cables complete with a new outer shell for stowing a longer cable on the Tesla dispensers. The pre-fab Superchargers they are trailering to new locations could accommodate pull-through charging spots if the end dispensers can be rotated 90º. Cables don't seem to be a problem in Europe.

 

[Maxx]

I didn't read 17 page of comment, sorry if it has been mentioned;

1 - The adapter needs to have at least 5 feet of cable included so we don't have to drive over the curb or model 3s to charge.

2 - GM and other manufacturers now may be backed into a corner to make similar deals with Tesla. Once Tesla put EA and other competitors out of business by becoming the only provider of juice, it can control EV demand by raising the energy cost for non-Tesla EVs or lowering it for Tesla owners. Is there any mechanism already in place to prevent that monopoly?

 

[GDN]

I didn't read 17 page of comment, sorry if it has been mentioned;

1 - The adapter needs to have at least 5 feet of cable included so we don't have to drive over the curb or model 3s to charge.

2 - GM and other manufacturers now may be backed into a corner to make similar deals with Tesla. Once Tesla put EA and other competitors out of business by becoming the only provider of juice, it can control EV demand by raising the energy cost for non-Tesla EVs or lowering it for Tesla owners. Is there any mechanism already in place to prevent that monopoly?

It will be interesting to see the next move. What everybody is overlooking is that we have a gas station on most every corner in NA. Tesla would be a small dog if every one of those stations would just add 2 DCFC chargers. The problem is that most of them don't want cars hanging around for 30 minutes. They aren't there for gas anymore. They want you to come in the store and buy the overpriced snacks.

So Tesla could be dwarfed quickly if the station owners want to make the investment. Problem is the electricity is going to have to be pretty pricey for to make it worth it for all of these operators.

It's also never too late if these legacy beastly manufactures think they are going to build a few million cars in the next few years to build their own network just like Tesla did. Create your own new standard, build lot of SC's with NACS or CCS, put your money where your mouth is. Tesla took a risk, they had to. Any of the others can still do the same, the nail is not in the coffin just yet.

Why is it that no one thinks the guy that took the risk and built the network that works shouldn't get to make a buck. I'll go out on a limb and say that if you looked at SC network finances alone it would be 10's of years for Tesla to turn a profit and be in the black.

This is still about nothing but convenience. I know not everyone can charge at home, but if you can't you may have to pay a premium. If you want to drive your EV across the country we may have to pay a premium. If EV's turn out to cost more to drive than an ICE and you don't like that, then you've made the wrong decision.

 

[TheWoo]

I didn't read 17 page of comment, sorry if it has been mentioned;

1 - The adapter needs to have at least 5 feet of cable included so we don't have to drive over the curb or model 3s to charge.

2 - GM and other manufacturers now may be backed into a corner to make similar deals with Tesla. Once Tesla put EA and other competitors out of business by becoming the only provider of juice, it can control EV demand by raising the energy cost for non-Tesla EVs or lowering it for Tesla owners. Is there any mechanism already in place to prevent that monopoly?

Any of us are going to be able to charge at all DCFC with the adapter for NACS. Even if all manufacturers move to NACS, the other thing that this new partnership is going to create is incentive for EA, EV Connect, EVGo, etc to add a NACS connector at their stations.

This will create more competition, not less. It's up to the networks to provide high enough quality to stay competitive.

 

[Maxx]

@GDN , @TheWoo It is not just electricity and the shape of the plug. It is the network it is attached to. If you have a choice between a credit card that is honored by 5000 stores and then there are 9000 other stores that you need 500 credit cards to shop at, what do you keep in your wallet? The other cards will disappear simply due to convenience and practicality of having one card. and all 14000 stores will soon accept that card. Unless EA and others become reliable, less expensive than superchargers and can get on a common platform/network. I doubt they can or want to get their .... together in time. Tesla is making one new supercharger site every 13 hours. I hope I am wrong but unless there is some sort of government intervention, this has monopoly written all over it.

 

[GDN]

@GDN , @TheWoo It is not just electricity and the shape of the plug. It is the network it is attached to. If you have a choice between a credit card that is honored by 5000 stores and then there are 9000 other stores that you need 500 credit cards to shop at, what do you keep in your wallet? The other cards will disappear simply due to convenience and practicality of having one card. and all 14000 stores will soon accept that card. Unless EA and others become reliable, less expensive than superchargers and can get on a common platform/network. I doubt they can or want to get their .... together in time. Tesla is making one new supercharger site every 13 hours. I hope I am wrong but unless there is some sort of government intervention, this has monopoly written all over it.

And so I'll just go on record as supporting the monopoly then. You have the power to change it, drive on by.

 

[Maxx]

And so I'll just go on record as supporting the monopoly then. You have the power to change it, drive on by.

To be honest, I am a bit too trilled about the new places I can get to to change anything. I just like to complain

 

[TheWoo]

@GDN , @TheWoo It is not just electricity and the shape of the plug. It is the network it is attached to. If you have a choice between a credit card that is honored by 5000 stores and then there are 9000 other stores that you need 500 credit cards to shop at, what do you keep in your wallet? The other cards will disappear simply due to convenience and practicality of having one card. and all 14000 stores will soon accept that card. Unless EA and others become reliable, less expensive than superchargers and can get on a common platform/network. I doubt they can or want to get their .... together in time. Tesla is making one new supercharger site every 13 hours. I hope I am wrong but unless there is some sort of government intervention, this has monopoly written all over it.

I don't disagree with what you've said here - where I see this differently is that this puts legitimate pressure squarely on the networks to get it together and do what we all want them to.

We're going to have to use FordPass to access superchargers. We already have plug-and-charge with EA. What if you could pull up to any DCFC and it just worked? I believe we were eventually headed there anyway, but this will help speed it.

All that said, it doesn't mean there won't have to be meaningful regulation until the overall industry is more developed. But Tesla is taking the fed money just like everyone else, so there are requirements built in. IMO we have lots of things to be concerned about before we worry about DCFC monopoly.

And living in the DCFC waste land that is middle America, I'm thrilled about this partnership!

 

[RickLightning]

That looks familiar...

 

[luebri]

I agree with unclear, but he said, “We’re gonna ship an adapter to everyone who’s bought a Ford EV…,” in this interview at 4:30.

In the Twitter spaces announcement Musk (when discussing the adapter) stated "it will not be cost prohibitive... it will be something that is quite affordable... in the hundreds of dollars range".

Watch the 14:10 to 16:10 mark of this video.

https://www.youtube.com/live/rsrs4a212g0?feature=share

So seeing as how the adapter is only for existing Ford EV's with CCS and he states it will be in the hundreds of dollars I dont think they are meaning it will be shipped free to customers even if Farley accidentally inferred it in an interview.

 

[TaxmanHog]

The Government "We're here to help you" will step in an mess something up .... trust me!

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