Forbes article on Fords adopting NACS

[davehu]

Good Article from Forbes. Headline is a little misleading. I thought it was a thoughtful analysis of the impact. Ford’s Deal To Use Tesla Charging Connector And Superchargers Could Kill CCS

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[Bills R Electric]

Ford Motor company has announced that starting next year, Fords will get access to Tesla’s supercharger network via an adapter sent to all owners, and later, new Fords will be made with the Tesla connector on them, allowing use without an adapter. This may mean the death of the “standard” CCS connector used by non-Tesla cars, and there is a strong case that it should. Whether it means the death of the J1772 slower charging plug is a different story.

Conventional wisdom is that J1772 and CCS are “industry standards” and thus the sure winners. They are also encoded into various laws creating subsidies for the installation of charging stations. But in spite of being a “standard” the Tesla connector is found on 2-3 times as many cars as CCS/J1772 because Tesla has, and continues to outsell all other carmakers combined. Is the “standard” the one chosen by the most companies, or the one chosen by the most people?

Tesla’s connector was proprietary, in that you initially needed a licence from Tesla to use it, while the other connectors were owned by a standards body. Early on, Tesla declared it would licence its patents for “free” but there were a few strings attached and almost nobody accepted the “free” offer. That changed recently as Tesla declared its connector to be entirely open, and people can use it without their permission. They renamed it the “NACS” or North American Charging Standard. EVgo has put Tesla plugs on their fast chargers for a few years, and an adapter to let J1772 cars charge from Tesla slow chargers has also been available for some time, but not much else. Aptera, which has yet to ship a car, has said it would use the Tesla connector.

There are 3 this of value from Tesla that Ford gets:

1. The use of Tesla’s connector or an adapter to it — this was already opened up by Tesla last year and does not need permission
2. The use of Tesla’s authentication/billing protocol when plugging in using NACS to a Tesla station. (Ford cars already implement the CCS version of this which has similar functionality.)
3. Most importantly of all, the right for Ford customers — hopefully forever — to pay Tesla (via Ford) for use of Tesla’s privately run top-grade charging network.

Ford’s announcement marks a big change because Ford is the (distant) #2 EV vendor in North America, where these plugs are used. With #1 and #2 using NACS, and over 2/3rds of the cars on the road, it has a stronger claim to being the common standard. Everybody would prefer that there was just one charging plug — car owners don’t want to use adapters, and EV charging stations don’t want to have to have two or more plugs or adapters. For some time, there was competition between CCS and the Japanese CHAdeMO standard, but that ended when Nissan, the champion of CHAdeMO, released their Aria car with CCS. Even so, because the Nissan Leaf was the leading EV for a few years, many charging stations support CHAdeMO and may be legally required to do so.

 

[chl]

Good Article from Forbes. Headline is a little misleading. I thought it was a thoughtful analysis of the impact. Ford’s Deal To Use Tesla Charging Connector And Superchargers Could Kill CCS

Thanks for the link.

As for "killing" CCS...maybe/probably? in the US.

Tesla is providing a CCS adapter in the mean time because they want to make money off all the people using CCS in the US now and in the future, the competition, driving Ford Lightnings and other EVs. Is that a sign Tesla feels threatened? Probably.

What about the rest of the world?

Guess what? Tesla is using CCS in Europe (and maybe elsewhere?):

In Europe, Tesla already uses the CCS connector, and we knew that Tesla would have a tougher time opening its Supercharger network in North America because of its own special connector. This is why Tesla made its connector open source, in the hopes that other EV makers would adopt the connection.

https://www.torquenews.com/14335/cc...ed-are-superchargers-going-allow-ccs-charging

Why is Tesla sticking with their NACS plug in the US and not going with the standard being adopted worldwide which they are using in other countries? Probably the costs of changing thier network and manufacturing to CCS? Arrogance? They'll tell you they have a better simpler design with NACS, true.

The standards committee MIGHT have adopted the Tesla/NACS as the standard except Tesla tried to keep it proprietary for a long time, and only recently opened up the design for others to use freely without restrictions, in other words, Tesla's perhaps short-sided "greed."

Buying, er, uh, influencing politicians and other manufacturers in Europe and the rest of the world is harder than in the US. Tesla has a head start in the US so they will win here, until something better comes along.

The only other thing I take issue with is the somewhat misleading info about CHAdeMO, which sounds like Tesla propaganda (see the image and description from a Tesla website) which makes the CHAdeMO sound like it came from the stone age:

"The CCS and CHAdeMO connectors are bulky monsters, much bigger and heavier than the NACS."

True about CCS which combines L2 and DC charging in one plug/socket. But CHAdeMO is really not so big that I'd call it a "bulky monster." The plug has a built in handle which accounts for some of the larger size and the rest is due to the mulitple analog control line pin clusters and the large DC conductor pins for relatively high wattage capacity - the second version of CHAdeMo supported up to 400 kW speeds.

World-wide, the number of electric vehicles adapted to CHAdeMO is very high, but it is being phased out for CCS in new vehicles, except Tesla's in the US, due to the adoption of CCS.

For example, CHAdeMO EVs, Nissan Leaf, Mitsubishi Outlander plug-in hybrid, Citroen C-ZERO, Peugeot iON, Citroen Berlingo, Peugeot Partner, Mitsubishi i-MiEV, and Mitsubishi MINICAB-MiEV, Mitsubishi MINICAB-MiEV truck, Honda Fit electric version, Mazda DEMIO EV, Subaru Stella plug-in hybrid, Nissan eEV200, etc.

The whole EV plug standardization situation is a mess, which is typical as new tech develops and companies battle it out for dominance - think the battle between Edison who wanted DC and Nikola Tesla who had a better idea, AC called the war of the currents.

Imagine if when Tesla and Nissan begain mass producing EVs over 10 years ago, Ford and other big car companies in the US had gotten in the game then instead of being dismissive of them - how much better would things be now?

 

[TheWoo]

Thanks for the link.

As for "killing" CCS...maybe/probably? in the US.

Tesla is providing a CCS adapter in the mean time because they want to make money off all the people using CCS in the US now and in the future, the competition, driving Ford Lightnings and other EVs. Is that a sign Tesla feels threatened? Probably.

What about the rest of the world?

Guess what? Tesla is using CCS in Europe (and maybe elsewhere?):

In Europe, Tesla already uses the CCS connector, and we knew that Tesla would have a tougher time opening its Supercharger network in North America because of its own special connector. This is why Tesla made its connector open source, in the hopes that other EV makers would adopt the connection.

https://www.torquenews.com/14335/cc...ed-are-superchargers-going-allow-ccs-charging

Why is Tesla sticking with their NACS plug in the US and not going with the standard being adopted worldwide which they are using in other countries? Probably the costs of changing thier network and manufacturing to CCS? Arrogance? They'll tell you they have a better simpler design with NACS, true.

The standards committee MIGHT have adopted the Tesla/NACS as the standard except Tesla tried to keep it proprietary for a long time, and only recently opened up the design for others to use freely without restrictions, in other words, Tesla's perhaps short-sided "greed."

Buying, er, uh, influencing politicians and other manufacturers in Europe and the rest of the world is harder than in the US. Tesla has a head start in the US so they will win here, until something better comes along.

The only other thing I take issue with is the somewhat misleading info about CHAdeMO, which sounds like Tesla propaganda (see the image and description from a Tesla website) which makes the CHAdeMO sound like it came from the stone age:

"The CCS and CHAdeMO connectors are bulky monsters, much bigger and heavier than the NACS."

True about CCS which combines L2 and DC charging in one plug/socket. But CHAdeMO is really not so big that I'd call it a "bulky monster." The plug has a built in handle which accounts for some of the larger size and the rest is due to the mulitple analog control line pin clusters and the large DC conductor pins for relatively high wattage capacity - the second version of CHAdeMo supported up to 400 kW speeds.

World-wide, the number of electric vehicles adapted to CHAdeMO is very high, but it is being phased out for CCS in new vehicles, except Tesla's in the US, due to the adoption of CCS.

For example, CHAdeMO EVs, Nissan Leaf, Mitsubishi Outlander plug-in hybrid, Citroen C-ZERO, Peugeot iON, Citroen Berlingo, Peugeot Partner, Mitsubishi i-MiEV, and Mitsubishi MINICAB-MiEV, Mitsubishi MINICAB-MiEV truck, Honda Fit electric version, Mazda DEMIO EV, Subaru Stella plug-in hybrid, Nissan eEV200, etc.

The whole EV plug standardization situation is a mess, which is typical as new tech develops and companies battle it out for dominance - think the battle between Edison who wanted DC and Nikola Tesla who had a better idea, AC called the war of the currents.

Imagine if when Tesla and Nissan begain mass producing EVs over 10 years ago, Ford and other big car companies in the US had gotten in the game then instead of being dismissive of them - how much better would things be now?

One caveat to your post - CCS in North America and CCS in Europe are two related but different standards. Europe uses CCS2 which is a different plug. So it's not like the US is going away from the European standard if we go to NACS.

 

[vandy1981]

1. The use of Tesla’s authentication/billing protocol when plugging in using NACS to a Tesla station. (Ford cars already implement the CCS version of this which has similar functionality.)

I don't know that it's been confirmed that Ford will have plug and charge capability as part of this deal.

It's actually more interesting if charging has to be initiated through an app rather than having the charger identify the vehicle through TLS or MAC address. Meaning you could use the adapter with any CCS vehicle if you have access to Superchargers through FordPass.

 

[TaxmanHog]

. Meaning you could use the adapter with any CCS vehicle if you have access to Superchargers through FordPass.

I've read somewhere, FORDPASS will be used to initiate the session, as is done with other Blue Oval Network systems (Charge Point, etc)

 

[sotek2345]

I don't know that it's been confirmed that Ford will have plug and charge capability as part of this deal.

It's actually more interesting if charging has to be initiated through an app rather than having the charger identify the vehicle through TLS or MAC address. Meaning you could use the adapter with any CCS vehicle if you have access to Superchargers through FordPass.

Not sure that would work - wouldn't the vehicle in question need to "speak" Tesla to use their network. I doubt the intelligence would be in the adapter, so some software updates would be needed on the vehicle side.

 

[Bills R Electric]

I don't know that it's been confirmed that Ford will have plug and charge capability as part of this deal.

It's actually more interesting if charging has to be initiated through an app rather than having the charger identify the vehicle through TLS or MAC address. Meaning you could use the adapter with any CCS vehicle if you have access to Superchargers through FordPass.

As long as I can use Tesla SuperChargers, I won't complain if I have to use an app.
I do prefer the way it works when I charge the Tesla, but charging my Lightning at Tesla's SC is going to be great.

 

[Maxx]

Not sure that would work - wouldn't the vehicle in question need to "speak" Tesla to use their network. I doubt the intelligence would be in the adapter, so some software updates would be needed on the vehicle side.

magic dock is basically an adapter. Only Ioniq 5 had problem with it.

 

[Amps]

Not sure that would work - wouldn't the vehicle in question need to "speak" Tesla to use their network. I doubt the intelligence would be in the adapter, so some software updates would be needed on the vehicle side.

Section 4.5.2 of NACS states that it is compatible with ISO 15118 P&C:

https://tesla-cdn.thron.com/static/...Technical_Specification_TS-0023666_HFTPKZ.pdf

 

[Amps]

've read somewhere, FORDPASS will be used to initiate the session, as is done with other Blue Oval Network systems (Charge Point, etc)

Link should start at 3:37 where Farley says FordPass billing was a 'dealbreaker' right before he also says they'll be sending all Ford EV owners the adapter

 

[Texas Dan]

One caveat to your post - CCS in North America and CCS in Europe are two related but different standards. Europe uses CCS2 which is a different plug. So it's not like the US is going away from the European standard if we go to NACS.

There really isn’t much difference between CCS1 and CCS2. You have been able to buy a CCS2 to CCS1 adapter for a very long time. The big difference between CCS2 and CCS1 is that CCS2 incorporates the SAE J-1772 AC Level 3 standard which is 240V, 3 Phase standard.

For all you that have been calling DCFC Level 3, that’s right, there is a real Level 3 standard and you have no access to it since only available in Europe out of a CCS2 plug.

 

[vandy1981]

I've read somewhere, FORDPASS will be used to initiate the session, as is done with other Blue Oval Network systems (Charge Point, etc)

If that's the case then you wpuld be able to start the charge on a non-ford vehicle, assuming Tesla doesn't use MAC addresses, certificates, or some other way to whitelist Ford vehicles.

There's a supercharger blacklist for salvaged Teslas but no one has tested this with a magic dock with a ccs adapter to my knowledge (i.e. Tesla plug>CCS adapter>Tesla adapter). If they don't block salvaged Teslas from magic docks there is a good chance you could get around the non-Ford restriction with FordPass.

 

[Amps]

If that's the case then you wpuld be able to start the charge on a non-ford vehicle, assuming Tesla doesn't use MAC addresses, certificates, or some other way to whitelist Ford vehicles.

I'd assume that Ford would be maintaining the whitelist as a gatekeeper to Tesla's billing system.

 

[vandy1981]

I'd assume that Ford would be maintaining the whitelist as a gatekeeper to Tesla's billing system.

Ford wouldn't necessarily know unless the SC collects vehicle-specific data (i.e. MAC address). The only requirement would be that the person has a Ford EV registered in the FordPass app. I could probably start a charge on a magic dock station from across the country if I wanted to.

This is all theoretical, but it will be interesting to see someone try it.

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