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Ford Lightning Pro Power Onboard failure on the last weld of the project

chl

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Hello everyone,
I'm new to this forum. I thought I better get familiar with this forum because of the issue I had last week.

I'm the owner operator of a Mechanical piping company. We do many different kinds of piping but mostly welding. I recently purchased a brand new Miller CST 282 stick welding machine as my main welder for the lighting. For the last few days my trucks pro power onboard has been acting up. The power keeps shutting off and Im getting a "Pro Power Onboard Service Required" indication. After unplugging the cord, restarting the truck it has been ok until.... The last weld on the job, Christmas eave in Malibu. We would have been finished, packed up and home for eggnog early. But the lightning would not re power up the bed outlets to my welder. I dropped the truck off this morning at Fullerton Ford.
I hope he understands the urgency of this repair because my company is shutdown until they get this fixed.

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I am wondering if perhaps your welding equipment burned up the Lightning breaker?

I am not too familiar with providing circuits to power welding equipment, but I seem to remember that a time delay breaker or fuse is usually needed/required.

It could be the Lightning breaker is not adequate for your welding equipment and over time failed.

I believe welding equipment can generate a large inrush current when starting the arc. That sort of thing can cause the GFCI to trip, but it could also, over time damage the breaker.

I had a really big current spike one time when Lightning passed through the circuit breaker my roof fan was on and it burnt up the breaker.

Hopefully in your case the inverted was not damaged - the breaker 'should have' protected it, but...anything is possible.
 
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Slight update.

Monday, I showed up at the Ford dealer ready to weld. Our plan was to catch it red handed. I was devoting the whole day to this if needed. They put me off on the corner of their parking lot with a mechanic to monitor. I proceeded to weld non stop, rod after rod until the same "service required" indication showed up and my welding machine shut off 15 rods in. The tech updated multiple modules and reset the truck just for it to do the same thing over and over again. NOTE: The temp of the cooling water to the inverter was in the 90 degree range. NOT GETTING HOT. The tech says the inverter will only shut off if it sees temps over 190 deg. The wattage being used realtime is in the 1300-1500 range (see video). I'm only using literally 1/2 of what this truck should be able to produce.

Next they pulled up a 2024 lightning demo vehicle. This truck had the extended range battery and the 220 volt 30 amp bed outlet just like mine.
I started welding and within 12 rods in the same thing happened to this truck. I don't get it. Why is the same issue happening with two different trucks. Same warning light to see dealer, dealer can't help me...even when they are standing right there when it happens.

I've had no luck contacting the ford moderator in this site. I have 4 unanswered DM's to him with no response.

Where do I go from here?

 

v2h8484

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It looks more and more like high frequency noise from the welder's inverter is causing nuisance tripping. You could try a power conditioner/noise filter between the welder and the truck.
 

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It looks more and more like high frequency noise from the welder's inverter is causing nuisance tripping. You could try a power conditioner/noise filter between the welder and the truck
If that's the case, wouldn't that have tripped way sooner than 15 minutes in and 12-15 rods lat

Watching this as welding is 1 of the reasons I purchased the pro 9.6 for.

Heck last week during our high winds and extended power outage, I got a shut off of power with a message that I can't exceed 175 watts from a closed frunk outlet. Problem was that it took about 1 hour to happen and I was away from the house using the power to recharge my battery packs running the fridge, and modems, cameras to the house. The load was approx 500-700 watts as I had monitored it prior to leaving. I left it running while taking my van to work for the day.

Why 175 watt shut down. Thought it's 400 watts. Why about 1 hour later, and not immediately?

Thanks for the update.

Rick
 
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v2h8484

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If that's the case, wouldn't that have tripped way sooner than 15 minutes in and 12-15 rods lat

Watching this as welding is 1 of the reasons I purchased the pro 9.6 for.

Heck last week during our high winds and extended power outage, I got a shut off of power with a message that I can't exceed 175 watts from a closed frunk outlet. Problem was that it took about 1 hour to happen and I was away from the house using the power to recharge my battery packs running the fridge, and modems, cameras to the house. The load was approx 500-700 watts as I had monitored it prior to leaving. I left it running while taking my van to work for the day.

Why 175 watt shut down. Thought it's 400 watts. Why about 1 hour later, and not immediately?

Thanks for the update.

Rick
Just speculation but a few possibilities for the delayed/random shutoff:

* high frequency noise magnitude/pattern can be somewhat random due to interaction with the load (e.g. where actual welding starts on a mains AC cycle, etc.).

* the truck's detection of high frequency noise can be marginal and/or include some logic processing (e.g. detected noise events per minute, etc.) for tripping that again can be affected by the specific load pattern.
 

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If that's the case, wouldn't that have tripped way sooner than 15 minutes in and 12-15 rods lat

Watching this as welding is 1 of the reasons I purchased the pro 9.6 for.

Heck last week during our high winds and extended power outage, I got a shut off of power with a message that I can't exceed 175 watts from a closed frunk outlet. Problem was that it took about 1 hour to happen and I was away from the house using the power to recharge my battery packs running the fridge, and modems, cameras to the house. The load was approx 500-700 watts as I had monitored it prior to leaving. I left it running while taking my van to work for the day.

Why 175 watt shut down. Thought it's 400 watts. Why about 1 hour later, and not immediately?

Thanks for the update.

Rick
Per the user manual, it says 'When the hood is closed, the frunk outlet power is limited.'

Ford F-150 Lightning Ford Lightning Pro Power Onboard failure on the last weld of the project 1737140646855-h9


They don't give you the definition of 'limited' though. I think it's been assumed on the forum that it's to idiot proof the truck from someone putting a crockpot, hairdryer, or some other device that can generate a lot of heat, and close the frunk and set the thing on fire. Not saying I agree with the logic, but from a legal standpoint I can see why they might do it.
 
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I received a call today from Ford Engineering department. They asked me if I would approve an installation of "Tokens" on my lightning. Apparently "tokens" are used as a diagnostic tool for Ford techs to be able to see deeper inside the workings of my truck. I've never heard of this before. I approved so we can get to the bottom of this. I'm still not sure what a "token" is. They say it is easily installed my the owner. It also only lasts for 30 days before it uninstalls itself.

Has anyone heard of this before?
 

chl

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Breakers are heat activated devices, so what seems to me to be happening is after welding the 12 or 15 rods non-stop, the breaker overheats. I think that can be a problem with long welding sessions on some circuits.

So I'd suggest if you want to keep using the truck to power your welder, try doing fewer welds, taking a break, then resuming welding.

The messages are probably what the truck displays when the breaker malfunctions from overheating.

I think eventually, the outlet breaker will completely fail if it keeps being overheated.

You might try running the welder and monitoring the heat at the truck breaker/outlet and see what temperature it reaches when it fails.
 

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Ford has had me replicate this issue three times. I have not heard back from them lately, but hopefully they are getting to the bottom of it. The last time I replicated the issue it literally only welded one rod. It seems to happen when I purposefully stick the welding rod to the pipe.
My harbor freight inverter generator runs that welding machine just fine. It has a 240 V 30 amp outlet. This is what I’ve been using until Ford figures out the issue. I have never tripped the breaker on the generator.
 

chl

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Ford has had me replicate this issue three times. I have not heard back from them lately, but hopefully they are getting to the bottom of it. The last time I replicated the issue it literally only welded one rod. It seems to happen when I purposefully stick the welding rod to the pipe.
My harbor freight inverter generator runs that welding machine just fine. It has a 240 V 30 amp outlet. This is what I’ve been using until Ford figures out the issue. I have never tripped the breaker on the generator.
Maybe it is detecting a ground fault, ie, an alternative path back to the GFCI through the pipe somehow.

The outlet is behaves essentially like a bonded generator that is not grounded to earth ground (unless you put on a ground strap to the body and attach it to a ground rod in the earth).

So if the pipe you are welding is grounded to the ground wire of the Lightning through your welder somehow, that will be detected as a ground fault because there will be some return current through the ground wire when you start welding.

Seems like the welder should be isolated however, through an isolation transformer maybe? Sorry, I am an electrical engineer but I don't know much about welders.

The GFCI is very sensitive to very small current differences between the current going out and that coming back on the current carrying line or lines. The ground is not suppose to carry current except in the case of a fault and if it does, the breaker opens.

From a quick search, it seems GFCI circuits being tripped by welders is not uncommon. The explanations are: 1) that the welding creates electrical noise that is interpreted by the GFCI as a ground fault (form inducing a current on the ground wire maybe?) or 2) that the grounding may experience fluctuations interpreted as ground faults.

If it is 2) the recommendation is to ground the welder well (not sure how that is done due to my unfamiliarity with welders).

But the Harbor Freight inverter generator you say works is suppose to be earth grounded (according to Harbor Freight info about their Inverter Generators anyway - which means it MUST be a bonded generator):

" Do not operate the generator before grounding. The generator must be earth-grounded in accordance with all relevant electrical codes and standards before operation. "

As I mentioned above, the truck outlet is bonded BUT not earth grounded until you attach the body to a ground rod. BTW, if powering your house with the Lightning, the code requires a neutral switching transfer switch and that the Lightning (a bonded generator) be earth grounded.

So maybe if you EARTH GROUND your Lightning, the problem will be solved? The earth ground might pull the ground voltage of the Lightning to the same potential as the welding set-up and then no difference current would be detected?

If it is 1) some kind of noise cancelling/filtering is needed, perhaps through a transformer.

Good luck.
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