White House releases plan to build nationwide network of 500,000 EV chargers

[shutterbug]

Those of use who use both have.

DC $0.31 per kWh Faster charge, harder on battery.
L2 (30A) )$0.15 kWh. Slower charge, easier on battery.

More red herring BS. None of this tells me or anyone else, which is better for the environment.

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[shutterbug]

We are challenging the status quo but it cuts both ways. Apts are now zoned to go up with zero parking if next to high speed train line. Apts and condos with parking are being built with, on average, six L2 chargers for 50-300 unit buildings. People living in those dwelling need fast DC charging if they want to own an EV.

You keep talking about this mythical situation where there are no parking spots, and yet there are cars. If there is a car, it gets parked somewhere. That somewhere is where it needs to be charged. There are 4 choices:

1. Drive 20-50 miles to an existing DCFC
2. Spend a huge amount of taxpayer money to build more DCFC, so the drive is only 10-15 miles.
3. Spend a huge amount of taxpayer money to build L2 chargers in places where people actually park and can charge during off peak hours.
4. Provide incentives to build more L2 chargers in place where people actually park and can charge during off peak hours.

You obviously prefer #1 because tesla and china. I prefer #4, since it will provide more charging infrastructure without destroying the electrical grid.

 

[EaglesPDX]

None of this tells me or anyone else, which is better for the environment.

The question was cost/benefit so I provided the cost differential and answered the question.

As far as L2 or DC being "better for the environment", there's no difference there. Whatever generated the electricity determines that but the default to use would be sustainable, zero emissions power source like wind or solar since consumers can buy it and why buy an EV to cut emissions and then not buy clean energy?

 

[EaglesPDX]

You keep talking about this mythical situation where there are no parking spots, and yet there are cars

Apts built along Interstate Ave along the new Metro line have been allowed to be built without parking. We have two new Metro lines where this is happening. Also allowed in the city itself with bus and tram lines.

Multi-family units being built now, we see, at best, 6 chargers in garages.

The garages and parking areas when built don't even hold all the cars as there is not a spot for every dwelling, usually about 30% so even if every spot in the garage had L2 charging, most of the residents would not.

Idea of overnight charging for every EV is not practical or cost effective while the charging station model has proven practical, fast and profitable.

Home charging for 60%, public charging for 40% is the baseline number. Tesla as the current example is skewed toward home charging as it is an upper income demographic. So even Tesla with most having home charging access sees large volume usage of DC chargers to the point that a 100:1 ratio is needed.

2.5M chargers for 250M EV's. 500,000 with the Infrastructure bill is a great start.

 

[EaglesPDX]

Provide incentives to build more L2 chargers in place where people actually park and can charge during off peak hours.

Tearing up every street and sidewalk to put in an overnight L2 charger for every parking spot is fantastically expensive.

Building charging stations where people can go get a fast charge is much more cost effective and has proven profitable with reasonable electric fees that still make EV's less expensive to operate.

It also has the advantage of being a proven working model.

 

[Mr. Flibble]

Tearing up every street and sidewalk to put in an overnight L2 charger for every parking spot is fantastically expensive.

Building charging stations where people can go get a fast charge is much more cost effective and has proven profitable with reasonable electric fees that still make EV's less expensive to operate.

It also has the advantage of being a proven working model.

It’s been proven in the UK that to convert streetlights to chargers and lights is very effective for EV use:

https://www.fleeteurope.com/en/new-energies/europe/analysis/1300-street-lights-converted-ev-chargers-london?a=JMA06&t[0]=Siemens&t[1]=Ubitricity&t[2]=electric vehicle&t[3]=charging infrastructure&t[4]=London&curl=1

Since most streetlights were built to code for Sodium Lamps, switching the lamps to LED leaves a lot of amperage remaining to charge EVs. This is a quite successful change, and has not required any digging up or installation of new power lines.

I heard they are up to 4000 points now.

 

[EaglesPDX]

It’s been proven in the UK that to convert streetlights to chargers and lights is very effective for EV use:

Street lights are every 120 feet, blocks about 600, parking spaces 18. So that would work for 5 out of 25 parking spaces on typical block.

Typically just one side of the street so 5 out of 50 parking could get L2.

Rest will have to go to the fast DC charging station at the gas/charging station down the block.

 

[Mr. Flibble]

Street lights are every 120 feet, blocks about 600, parking spaces 18. So that would work for 5 out of 25 parking spaces on typical block.

Typically just one side of the street so 5 out of 50 parking could get L2.

Rest will have to go to the fast DC charging station at the gas/charging station down the block.

The DCFC is still an old school mentality as the video points out. It’s the gas station mentality, and that is going away. More and more L2 chargers will appear as the adoption rates of EVs increase. Currently, they are less than 3% of total sales in the US. So they are uncommon.

Furthermore, they are only purchased by high-income earners, as new EVs cost more than gas vehicles.

Right now, they are like the new iPhone of cars. Only people with extra income buy them.

But lets compare Norway.

Norway just tipped the scales from EV adoption to greater than 50%. That is, more than half of their cars are EVs.

What has Norway done for charging?

They have installed a massive number of L2 charging stations. There are DCFC around, but they are not nearly as common as the L2 stations.

The simple fact of the matter is that DCFC are not needed except for long road trips, and L1 and L2 chargers are easy to install on existing infrastructure, as Norway has clearly shown.

To think otherwise is to be stuck in a gas-station mentality.

 

[shutterbug]

Apts built along Interstate Ave along the new Metro line have been allowed to be built without parking. We have two new Metro lines where this is happening. Also allowed in the city itself with bus and tram lines.

You keep talking about this mythical situation of cars without parking spots. If there are cars, they get parked somewhere. Unless your city planners envision cars that never stop.

Tearing up every street and sidewalk to put in an overnight L2 charger for every parking spot is fantastically expensive.

Because digging up a trench and hauling high power to a parking lot is completely free. And there is no need for a L2 charger in every spot.

 

[EaglesPDX]

There are DCFC around, but they are not nearly as common as the L2 stations.

You can watch some Bjorn Nyland videos where he'll demonstrate the huge number of fast DC chargers in Norway.

 

[EaglesPDX]

You keep talking about this mythical situation of cars without parking spots.

Every car has a parking spot.

Most parking spots not attached to a home don't have chargers or a cost effective way to bring power to them.

Strategically located fast DC chargers are the way to go if you can't get charging at your parking spot at home or work.

There are currently enough fast DC chargers in most populated areas that you can live without home charging. Trick now is to keep building them as more and more EV's hit the road.

Gov't plan to incentivize rollout of 500,000 of them will help. We'll need about 2M of them.

 

[Mr. Flibble]

You can watch some Bjorn Nyland videos where he'll demonstrate the huge number of fast DC chargers in Norway.

Yes, there are a lot of DCFC’s in Norway. For long road trips.

The fact of the matter is that 82% of people in Norway charge at home. 12% charge at L2 chargers in city/public parking spots. The people who live in apartments without L2/L1 chargers don’t charge on L3 chargers alone enough to even make it into 1% of the statistics.

There are people who charge mostly at L3, but those are the exceptions and outliers who want to inconvenience themselves enough to do that. The other? They drive gas vehicles.

No matter how you slice it, with high EV adoption, the majority do not use L3 on a regular basis, and the science supports this.

 

[shutterbug]

Strategically located fast DC

Is 20-50 miles away strategic?

Most parking spots not attached to a home don't have chargers or a cost effective way to bring power to them.

If there are street lights nearby, there is a way to get power to L2 chargers.

Gov't plan to incentivize rollout of 500,000

Government has plans to yak about chargers until the money runs out.

 

[EaglesPDX]

Yes, there are a lot of DCFC’s in Norway. For long road trips.

Correct. Someone said there were not.

 

[EaglesPDX]

The fact of the matter is that 82% of people in Norway charge at home.

95% so Norway has very different housing base than US where that number is around 50% who have home charging option.

Norway still has extensive fast DC charging network so a Norwegian without home charging can easily own an EV.

Retrofitting existing US multi-family dwellings is going to be very expensive vs. installing the fast DC base. We don't see any sign this is happening even in new construction. Since the fast DC base is needed no matter what (see Norway), build that as it serves home chargers and those dependent on public charging.

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