Winches and other high current equipment

[Pedaldude]

With the big front trunk already having power to it, I'd bet some McGyver will quickly figure out how to use it for a winch and probably a lot of other stuff.

As mentioned above, hopefully at least the Pro will have a better OEM accessory battery that can easily be adapted. Or maybe they will change it for 2024 once Ford realizes that owners will be doing more than posing for picnic photos on the beach and driving through mud puddles on test tracks as part of their off-roading.

...Trying to build on a mechanical PTO to drive motor creates a lot of issues.

How big does a winch motor need to be?

It's a packaging problem, there would be zero issues other than another shaft seal through the case. We're talking 100 year old technology and it's a $200 option on the F250. Weight depends on how it's implemented but if an existing shaft is used it would be negligible. I don't know how much weight is added on the F250, you would have to compare the GVWR and payload stickers between two identical builds, one with Live-Drive and one without.

Sizing on an a winch depends on how you anticipate using it. For recovery, off-road dudes like to run a winch rated 1-2X their vehicles GVWR but if it's just a utility winch to drag around shit that is to heavy to lift or to operate a gin pole, depending on what you are doing, it could be a winch rated for a few hundred pounds.

As far as the Lightning's drive motor, it would definitely be overkill, a 5HP 12V winch motor on a 9,500lb winch might weigh 20lbs with the actual winch components weighing 70-80lbs, a 35GPM PTO driven hydraulic pump will weigh around 50lbs but would power a 40,000lb industrial winch that weighs over a quarter ton. That's why the PTO is still used for work trucks but pretty much only to power hydraulics, as they're cheaper, lighter and harder to kill than the equivalent electric motor. Really, the only current application is plow, dump and bucket or boom truck hydraulics.

There's really no modern comparison for the light truck segment, since the majority of trucks sold are generally used in the same way as a station wagon or minivan. Back in the day though you could get a Willys Jeep or Land Rover with front and rear PTO shafts, so there is precedent. The only thing is with cheap manufacturing, electric motors that used to be fairly expensive are now plentiful and cheap, so all the accessories that used to be run by small tractors or Jeeps are now less expensive with motors than without. If you wanted a PTO 3-point mounted cement mixer, it will cost $1,200. A very similar cement mixer with the same capacity and a 120V motor will cost $300 because of much higher demand. You can get a generator to run the mixer and be way ahead financially while still being able to use it remotely.

Still, I think that a PTO would be pretty sweet! It would also solve the flat towing problem, since the transaxles would need a neutral. Maybe Jeep will do something with their new EV Wrangler models eventually. Jeep will have less of a packaging problem with minimal front and rear overhang.

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[EaglesPDX]

We're talking 100 year old technology and it's a $200 option on the F250.

As you point out, on a electric it would require a clutch mechanism to disconnect the direct drive motor from the wheel. Not a cheap thing if it could even be engineered.

With EV's, you'd power another electric motor to do the job needed vs. putting a mechanical output on a drive motor.

On the mechanical being more reliable, electric motors are extremely reliable and long lasting so not sure the mechanical wins that category.

You mention a motor large enough to pull the vehicle which would require a significant bracing on the motor mount.

Not clear from your post but how big a motor to the two categories you mentioned?

1. Pull the 6,000# F150EV.
2. Smaller pull for the "stuff".

 

[Pedaldude]

As you point out, on a electric it would require a clutch mechanism to disconnect the direct drive motor from the wheel. Not a cheap thing if it could even be engineered.

No need at all for a clutch, just a neutral. Clutches are only needed because of ICEs lack of low speed torque. A simple mechanical disconnect is all that would be needed, Ford already has the parts in the form of the IWE integrated wheel ends. Jeep has a similar disconnect for their solid front axle.

With EV's, you'd power another electric motor to do the job needed vs. putting a mechanical output on a drive motor.

On the mechanical being more reliable, electric motors are extremely reliable and long lasting so not sure the mechanical wins that category.

The transaxle/gearbox of the Lightning, Mach-e and Tesla is a mechanical output. The power flows from the motor through a set of gears, through a differential and then through two pairs of CV joints before it gets to the wheel hubs. The Rivian is supposed to use hub motors but even then; the splined shaft and bearings of all electric motors and their interfaces are a mechanical output sapping energy from the motor. So if you really want to get rid of all mechanical encumbrances in an EV, the only realistic option is to travel by maglev train.

Everything is as reliable as engineering, accounting and production allow. However, 12V sucks for motors and it's one of the reasons why marine and military applications will have 24V systems instead. Google 'my winch motor burned up.' and you will see a shit ton of results mainly because of Ohm's Law. I imagine that the rest are damaged through misuse and poor installation assuming that it's not poor manufacturing. Old cars used 6V and that sucks even more and probably is why crank start and vacuum operated wiper motors lasted as long as they did and if you want to talk about silly ways of avoiding using electric motors, VW used to use the air from the spare tire to power the windshield washer nozzles!

Not clear from your post but how big a motor to the two categories you mentioned?

1. Pull the 6,000# F150EV.
2. Smaller pull for the "stuff".

...For recovery, off-road dudes like to run a winch rated 1-2X their vehicles GVWR but if it's just a utility winch to drag around shit that is to heavy to lift or to operate a gin pole, depending on what you are doing, it could be a winch rated for a few hundred pounds.

A planetary gear 12V recovery winch rated at 9,500Lbs can weigh 90lbs, with around 20lbs of that being the motor. It naturally varies depending on manufacturer. You can also easily double the mechanical advantage with a snatch block.

For the light duty stuff, on my own time and my own money, I choose a manual winch. The one below is rated for 550lbs, weighs just over 4lbs and fits in a cargo pants pocket:

https://www.hoosiercrane.com/harrington-1-4-ton-lx003-mini-lever-hoist

The metric half ton hoist is rated at 1,100lbs and isn't much bigger.

For certain things, I like to use a Trucker's hitch with multiple loops tied in the bight as a crude block and tackle, once you get over a certain number of loops, the mechanical advantage is so high that friction holds the load.

 

[EaglesPDX]

No need at all for a clutch, just a neutral.

Which requires a clutch, some one to engage and disengage, complex thing to engineer on EV's just for a PTO that another electric motor will do a better job with.

 

[astricklin]

If you are really worried about capacity of the 12v system, tap into the 2.2kw available on the 120v outlets in the frunk. That should be more than enough power for multiple winches.

 

[GarageMahal]

If you are really worried about capacity of the 12v system, tap into the 2.2kw available on the 120v outlets in the frunk. That should be more than enough power for multiple winches.

Actually it isn't all that much...

If my math is correct, 400 amps at 12v is 4.4kw so the 120vAC system only gets half way and that is ignoring the loss incurred when converting AC to DC (and there was loss converting it to AC in the first place)

Maybe my late night math is wrong however it looks to me that at pure DC solution will be superior.

 

[EaglesPDX]

If my math is correct, 400 amps at 12v is 4.4kw

So a 4 kW motor mounted and braced in the front trunk would be the best solution on a Ford F150EV.

 

[Pedaldude]

If my math is correct, 400 amps at 12v is 4.4kw so the 120vAC system only gets half way...

Ohm's law:

https://www.electrical101.com/ohms-law.html

P=ExI

4,800 watts would be your power and that would be 6.5hp winch motor which could make for a 8,000-9,000lb winch.

One easy way to halve your power requirement is to double your mechanical advantage by using a snatch block, some drawbacks to that is you need to use twice as much line and it would take twice as long. That way, you can look into lighter winches with lower HP motors.

You never really mentioned what you intended on using the winch for. Generally, smaller utility winches are used for receiver mounted winches.

Another option not mentioned would be cutting the electrical system entirely out by using a gasoline powered winch:

 

[EaglesPDX]

4,800 watts would be your power and that would be 6.5hp winch motor which could make for a 8,000-9,000lb winch.

The drive motors are going to be in the 250kW range. Powering a 5kW winch motor is trivial for an EV.

 

[EaglesPDX]

The power flows from the motor through a set of gears, through a differential and then through two pairs of CV joints before it gets to the wheel hubs.

MachE is direct drive single speed transmission.

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