Lightning and Mach-E share same LVB (12V battery)

[Mike G]

Turns out that the Lightning and the Mach-E share at least one thing in common (well besides several of the electronic modules like the APIM, etc.).

And that would be the 12V battery (AKA the LVB, as we are now distinguishing it from the HVB)

I was in the parts lookup today as a result of somebody online wondering about the capacity of the Lightning 12V battery and was surprised to find it's the same part number as the one on my Mach-E.

Lightning:

Mach-E

All the more reason to definitely use a powersupply to keep the levels up while programming modules. This thing is not like the 800 amp versions found on ICE and Powerboost trucks. Start module programming without a powersupply on a Lightning and you'll see the voltage drop like a stone, just like on the Mach-E.

Mike

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[MickeyAO]

Turns out that the Lightning and the Mach-E share at least one thing in common (well besides several of the electronic modules like the APIM, etc.).

And that would be the 12V battery (AKA the LVB, as we are now distinguishing it from the HVB)

I was in the parts lookup today as a result of somebody online wondering about the capacity of the Lightning 12V battery and was surprised to find it's the same part number as the one on my Mach-E.

Lightning:

Mach-E

All the more reason to definitely use a powersupply to keep the levels up while programming modules. This thing is not like the 800 amp versions found on ICE and Powerboost trucks. Start module programming without a powersupply on a Lightning and you'll see the voltage drop like a stone, just like on the Mach-E.

Mike

Do you have the same problem if plugged into your EVSE (aka shore power)?

 

[Mike G]

Are you referring to using the EVSE while module programming? Cause you're not supposed to do that.

 

[MickeyAO]

Are you referring to using the EVSE while module programming? Cause you're not supposed to do that.

So you are required to unplug from the EVSE in order to update, or just make sure that charging has stopped when the updates start?

This is outside of my wheelhouse, so I'm asking noob questions. I've tested many BEVs, but have not owned one yet.

 

[Mike G]

So you are required to unplug from the EVSE in order to update, or just make sure that charging has stopped when the updates start?

This is outside of my wheelhouse, so I'm asking noob questions. I've tested many BEVs, but have not owned one yet.

Yeah you're not supposed to be on the EVSE when doing updates. I just saw that again today while in PTS but I'll have to find it again. Also, there was a forum member who found out the hard way when he was doing updates recently and got all sorts of errors. I'll see if I can find the reference tomorrow.

I know why you're asking and it would be great if the EVSE and DCDC converter kept the 12V LVB pumped up during programming but the charging actually interferes with modules that may be in use when you're trying to update them. So that's why you need to use a separate powersupply (I'm thinking the PL6100 instead of the smaller PL2320).

Updated: with the programming reference.

Mike

 

[beatle]

Yeah you're not supposed to be on the EVSE when doing updates.

That's very bizarre. The truck should simply disconnect itself from the EVSE when performing an update if it's an issue. You shouldn't have to do it manually. When Ford finally gets OTA updates working properly, are they going to ask people to unplug their vehicles so the update can be applied?

Or is this guidance just for doing work via a diagnostic port?

 

[Mike G]

That's very bizarre. The truck should simply disconnect itself from the EVSE when performing an update if it's an issue. You shouldn't have to do it manually. When Ford finally gets OTA updates working properly, are they going to ask people to unplug their vehicles so the update can be applied?

Or is this guidance just for doing work via a diagnostic port?

Well it's definitely guidance for doing module programming using FDRS.

But as to your earlier question, here's some info I'm reading right now:

Unless I'm misunderstanding what I'm reading now there may be an issue with OTAs kicking off if the vehicle is plugged in and charging. But the way this is written it's difficult to tell if they mean just AC charging or only DCFC. I'll let you be the judge:

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Vehicle status and operational preconditions must be met for all over the air (OTA) update software installations to complete, scheduled or unscheduled. Battery state of charge is an important factor that is considered before an update is started. The GWM is aware of the length of time required to update a given module
and compares this against the battery state of charge. If it determines that the battery state of charge is not high enough to support the update, the update is cancelled. Other preconditions that must be met before an OTA update is installed. The PTS software update dashboard displays the preconditions applicable to your vehicle. The preconditions can include but are not limited to, the following:

Electronic Steering Column Lock (ESCL) is engaged
Steering tension torque, no torque is applied to the steering wheel
A diagnostic self-test is not active
No Charging faults are reported
Ignition status, Ignition Off
Ignition status, Accessory functionality Off
The battery voltage is within the required range
The vehicle is stopped
PRNDL in park
Parking brake is applied
Charging is not in Progress (hybrid or EV high voltage battery charging/LIII)
The hazard indicators are off
The alarm is not sounding
The engine is not running
All doors and liftgate are closed
The parking lights are off
Limp home mode is not active
Illuminated exit is not active
The brake pedal is not being pressed
The battery voltage is within the required range
The windows are closed and not operating
eCall is not active
Remote start is not active
Vehicle theft (SVS) is not active
Remote park assist is not active
Neutral tow is not active
4x4 high/Low is not active
A DTC requiring vehicle service, is not present in the module targeted for the update.

The vehicle must be off for a minimum of 5 minutes before the GWM will attempt the target module update, scheduled or unscheduled. The GWM confirms the 5 minute off condition is met, all other preconditions are met and the battery status can support the update process before initiating the module update(s).

Note: The GWM considers the battery life while the module programming action is active and the vehicle is off, to be a maximum of 40 minutes. With the deterioration of the state of charge increasing after the 5 minute period with the vehicle off before starting any update, the maximum download time allowable is approximately 10 minutes.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Conditions, conditions, conditions. Is it a wonder any OTAs get through? Especially that bit about battery state of charge (12V LVB).

Oh, and in another section of the same page it says you must have 3 bars of (AT&T) signal strength where the vehicle is parked to enable downloading of OTAs. Specifically the wording says: "The vehicle has 2 sources of connection to the Ford data cloud, vehicle WiFi and vehicle cellular data. The vehicle is required to have a minimum of 3 bars signal at the location where the vehicle is parked over night, to make sure OTA updates are completed without delays."

Although nobody has conclusively shown that they actually received an OTA over their home wifi instead of the vehicles TCU. If they have I'd love to see the proof.

Enjoy your weekend! (unless you had other plans)

Mike

 

[beatle]

It makes sense that the truck would not be in the process of charging, but plugged in should be okay.

"The vehicle has 2 sources of connection to the Ford data cloud, vehicle WiFi and vehicle cellular data. The vehicle is required to have a minimum of 3 bars signal at the location where the vehicle is parked over night, to make sure OTA updates are completed without delays."

This doesn't make a lot of sense. I can see it saying you must have at least 3 bars of cell signal OR "good" wifi signal strength to pull the update, but really even that is kind of a stretch. The system should download the update at any speed, verify a checksum, and then perform the update offline if necessary.

Tesla doesn't even download updates over the cell network and waits for you to be connected to wifi. Some people use this as a means to "block" updates by never connecting the car to wifi.

 

[Maquis]

Do you have the same problem if plugged into your EVSE (aka shore power)?

Basically the internal modules get shutdown during update, so you lose the DC-DC converter that normally maintains the 12V battery.

 

[FlasherZ]

The Ford police upfitter guide mentions that OTA update prep will sometimes trigger a LVB battery charge prior to starting.

 

[Mike G]

The Ford police upfitter guide mentions that OTA update prep will sometimes trigger a LVB battery charge prior to starting.

But does the OTA even kick off if the vehicle is charging at the time? There are folks on the MME forums telling peeps to set their OTA schedule to 1 AM. Okay, probably a good time to do that while you're sleeping and not using the car. But if the car is still actively charging will it even initiate an OTA update?

Mike

 

[Maquis]

But does the OTA even kick off if the vehicle is charging at the time? There are folks on the MME forums telling peeps to set their OTA schedule to 1 AM. Okay, probably a good time to do that while you're sleeping and not using the car. But if the car is still actively charging will it even initiate an OTA update?

Mike

OTA updates work differently than FDRS updates. The reason for the off-hours setting is because some OTAs can make the car undriveable for a short period, not because of anything to do with the 12V battery.

 

[Ford Senior Master]

I also learned the hard way about doing updates while charging. Several modules will update but not configure while charging. Most notably the SOBDM. It will fail configuration step every time during charging because of the charge sessions dependence on the SOBDM to modulate the charge. It is silly that it doesn't just stop the charging automatically during the configuration phase.

 

[Ford Senior Master]

And another stupid ass thing is why isn't there easier access to the positive lvb charge point.
Removing 2 panels with sketchy clips is stupid.

 

[Mike G]

And another stupid ass thing is why isn't there easier access to the positive lvb charge point.
Removing 2 panels with sketchy clips is stupid.

We're talking about the Lightning right? Cause it's on the right side of the frunk tub and has turn-lock fasteners. Really easy.

Or are you referring to the MME?

On that one I agree. That's why I did the mod with the plastic caps. I also added "T" handle black drawer pulls from Lowes to each cap but they're not in this pic. They're low profile so you can clear the hood when it closes.

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