American made content??? [Update: 50% U.S. manufactured]

[Sklith]

Chips act and new EV legislation should create a lot of those jobs

Extraction of rare earth metals from US soil isn't very popular at the moment. It could be done but there's a great ecological and social cost to it, and I bet it'll stay this way for quite a while.

Sponsored

 

[watchdoc]

Whichever party runs on energy security, health security, and supply chain security is gonna get my vote.

 

[DrZoidberg]

50% is pretty terrible for 'America's Truck.'

 

[Maquis]

85% or better.

Yes. I would pay more. Just like with all the appliances we just bought. KitchenAid. And the furniture. La-Z-Boy. And our washer and dryer. Speed Queen.

I'm not afraid to spend more for a quality, American made product. The more we build here, the better off everybody that lives here is.

Vitually all major appliances are US-made since we put huge tariffs on appliance imports in the late 2000s. You didn’t pay up, you didn’t have a choice.

Zenith tried the “American made” tactic back in the 70s when all TV production was being moved to Asia. Not enough people paid the premium and they gave up.

 

[rlbussard]

Then it's our own fault when the supply base goes caput and screws us. Like the current chip shortage. Or the medical supplies during Covid.

There is a vehicle chip shortage, but a lot of this falls squarely on Ford, Chrysler, and every other vehicle manufacturer. They are using chips that are 20 years old instead of investing in newer chips. Intel and others have stated they can make them all of the chips they want if they would even upgrade them to 2010s type chips. Vehicle manufacturers reply that they need years of testing to make sure they will hold up to the rigor of a vehicle. My answer to that is that you have had over 20 years to put these chips through the trenches, but have decided to continue to stick with outdated equipment just because it works and they don't want to spend the R&D money to see if they would work. Imagine how fast our processes would be if these same manufactures were to upgrade to chips from 10 years ago. Or to chips from 5 years ago.

Don't blame this totally on Intel and all the rest of them, most of the vehicle chip shortages falls squarely on the manufacturers.

 

[Pioneer74]

There is a vehicle chip shortage, but a lot of this falls squarely on Ford, Chrysler, and every other vehicle manufacturer. They are using chips that are 20 years old instead of investing in newer chips. Intel and others have stated they can make them all of the chips they want if they would even upgrade them to 2010s type chips. Vehicle manufacturers reply that they need years of testing to make sure they will hold up to the rigor of a vehicle. My answer to that is that you have had over 20 years to put these chips through the trenches, but have decided to continue to stick with outdated equipment just because it works and they don't want to spend the R&D money to see if they would work. Imagine how fast our processes would be if these same manufactures were to upgrade to chips from 10 years ago. Or to chips from 5 years ago.

Don't blame this totally on Intel and all the rest of them, most of the vehicle chip shortages falls squarely on the manufacturers.

All of that may be true, but they should still be made in the U.S.

 

[rlbussard]

All of that may be true, but they should still be made in the U.S.

It should be all American made, but Americans are cheap. Most of the population wants cheap goods and to get cheap goods it has to come from somewhere else. Most people are not going to spend 30% or more for American made products. It is unfortunate, but with the world integration of the supply chain, it is a very short list to see a 100% American made product now. Outsourcing has changed the world, but things made overseas is usually not made very well. Of course this depends on where it is made, but you get the idea. I don't think we will ever see many fully American made products ever again, especially vehicles.

 

[sotek2345]

It should be all American made, but Americans are cheap. Most of the population wants cheap goods and to get cheap goods it has to come from somewhere else. Most people are not going to spend 30% or more for American made products. It is unfortunate, but with the world integration of the supply chain, it is a very short list to see a 100% American made product now. Outsourcing has changed the world, but things made overseas is usually not made very well. Of course this depends on where it is made, but you get the idea. I don't think we will ever see many fully American made products ever again, especially vehicles.

I would bet that there are no 100 percent American made products at this point, if you include everything in the supply chain. Heck name me a product that isn't designed on a computer that has parts made overseas, or at least uses raw materials sourced overseas.

 

[rlbussard]

I would bet that there are no 100 percent American made products at this point, if you include everything in the supply chain. Heck name me a product that isn't designed on a computer that has parts made overseas, or at least uses raw materials sourced overseas.

I wanted to say that, but somewhere along the line someone would them tell me there is one. So I went with almost all.

 

[data003]

All of that may be true, but they should still be made in the U.S.

Most of Intel’s fabs are in the US. I don’t think this would be a problem.

 

[VTbuckeye]

It should be all American made, but Americans are cheap. Most of the population wants cheap goods and to get cheap goods it has to come from somewhere else. Most people are not going to spend 30% or more for American made products. It is unfortunate, but with the world integration of the supply chain, it is a very short list to see a 100% American made product now. Outsourcing has changed the world, but things made overseas is usually not made very well. Of course this depends on where it is made, but you get the idea. I don't think we will ever see many fully American made products ever again, especially vehicles.

Spending 30 percent more is not palatable to most Americans, but some of us also fear (not really the right word, but it will do) that what could be a 20 to 30 percent premium would turn into a 45 percent premium due to corporate greed that America seems to love and protect.

 

[sotek2345]

Spending 30 percent more is not palatable to most Americans, but some of us also fear (not really the right word, but it will do) that what could be a 20 to 30 percent premium would turn into a 45 percent premium due to corporate greed that America seems to love and protect.

I would be surprised if it was only a 30 percent premium. I would expect more like 300 percent or more for 100 percent American made (everything from raw materials to finished product, including the supply chain for all of the design, manufacturing, and support services).

 

[beatle]

There is a vehicle chip shortage, but a lot of this falls squarely on Ford, Chrysler, and every other vehicle manufacturer. They are using chips that are 20 years old instead of investing in newer chips. Intel and others have stated they can make them all of the chips they want if they would even upgrade them to 2010s type chips. Vehicle manufacturers reply that they need years of testing to make sure they will hold up to the rigor of a vehicle. My answer to that is that you have had over 20 years to put these chips through the trenches, but have decided to continue to stick with outdated equipment just because it works and they don't want to spend the R&D money to see if they would work. Imagine how fast our processes would be if these same manufactures were to upgrade to chips from 10 years ago. Or to chips from 5 years ago.

Don't blame this totally on Intel and all the rest of them, most of the vehicle chip shortages falls squarely on the manufacturers.

There are plenty of industries with technology that doesn't change very rapidly because the old stuff just works. Heck, you should see some of the old technology that NASA flies (including the JWST) because it is flight tested and proven. Sourcing a replacement is often not worth the risk or cost. What do the car companies gain by moving on to newer chip construction? Newer chips are smaller, faster, and/or use less energy. None of those are important when you just need to deploy your running boards. The old designs just work, and they're dirt cheap because the engineering work was done a long time ago and has long been amortized. Heck, look at people who cling to their old technology because it just works for them. Sometimes this is out of ignorance, sometimes it's smart.

Note that I'm not saying the automakers did not have a hand in making their own bed, but it's a risk that obviously none of them planned for. It will be interesting to see if they follow Tesla's lead of rearchitecting how these chips are used around a central control board. I'd wager they're all at least strongly considering it now for any new platforms.

This article goes into the mexican standoff of automotive chips it in greater detail: https://getjerry.com/insights/chipmakers-telling-car-manufacturers-join-2010s

Here's another one:
https://cleantechnica.com/2021/09/2...-in-the-news-on-the-automotive-chip-shortage/

 

[kbrannen]

There is a vehicle chip shortage, but a lot of this falls squarely on Ford, Chrysler, and every other vehicle manufacturer. They are using chips that are 20 years old instead of investing in newer chips. Intel and others have stated they can make them all of the chips they want if they would even upgrade them to 2010s type chips. Vehicle manufacturers reply that they need years of testing to make sure they will hold up to the rigor of a vehicle. My answer to that is that you have had over 20 years to put these chips through the trenches, but have decided to continue to stick with outdated equipment just because it works and they don't want to spend the R&D money to see if they would work. Imagine how fast our processes would be if these same manufactures were to upgrade to chips from 10 years ago. Or to chips from 5 years ago.

Don't blame this totally on Intel and all the rest of them, most of the vehicle chip shortages falls squarely on the manufacturers.

I know where you're coming from on this as I've seen this argument stated before. From where I sit, this is a more complex problem.

First, the car makers only need "X level" of functionality to get a job done, e.g. open/close a window or whatever. When the chip they're using does that well and it's well tested, exactly what does spending money to upgrade really get them? All I can see is spending money for nothing gained.

The one place where they do gain is the "infotainment" area, and they are upgrading there from what I can tell.

Second, for some applications, the older chips might actually be better, e.g. where the chips are exposed to more extreme temperatures. There, you want chips that are more robust and that generally means something designed for that, and the larger lithography is actually better (generally speaking).

On the flip side, the chip makers upgrade stuff because the consumer electronics makers want the newer and faster stuff (faster & better laptops and phones!). That means the chip makers have to keep at least a little of the older equipment running to make the chips for cars. So that puts the chip makers and the car makers at odds with each other.

Also, the car makers did themselves a disservice when the pandemic hit. They though "oh no, we're going to sell less so because we like 'just in time manufacturing' we better order less chips". Sounds good in theory until you find out that when all of the car makers did that then some of the chip maker's production lines went idle (and that's bad for business and the equipment doesn't like it either). So the chip makers shut those lines down and spun up new lines for consumer electronics which were super popular. Now the car makers come back crying for chips and the chip makers reply, "uh, we don't the same capacity any more you'll have to wait". Cue swear words for the car makers and the buying public who wants cars but can't get as many as they want.

Then even when the chip makers have the chips, getting them shipped here has been hard the last couple of years because of "lots of reasons" and shipping looks to be only starting to get a little better lately (so still lots of issues there). [Of course, my wife who has to deal with getting stuff shipped overseas laughs when she hears that, so maybe it's not getting better yet.]

There are 2 good solutions. The first is what you said, move to new chips, say at the 24nm size which is new enough the chip makers will be happy but large enough not to have the issues the really small size could have. Second, go build a plant here in the US that specializes in the larger 40nm (an up) sizes for car makers (and others makers) who need that form factor. I'm sure there are variations on each theme but those are the two main ways to go from what I've heard. Sadly, neither one of those is quickly done nor cheap to do. I suppose a third way is to build using fewer chips, but consumers seem to be wanting more not less.

There's lots of problems and blame to go around. Lots of moderization to be done in lots of areas (manufacturing and logistics just to name 2). And yep, no one really wants to pay for it. It's a lovely thing! (yep, that last is very sarcastic)

 

[watchdoc]

Interesting read. Do any other EV makers take the Tesla approach of having a central processor run everything vs the old school method (engine control module, body control module, transmission control module, ABS computer, etc)

Sponsored