Crazy Surging

[Bespectacled Ape]

Back when I was researching, I saw bent plates with heavier trailers.

The other thing to note is that because you’re using chains you’re mostly controlling the up and down forces, not necessarily the forward back, side to side that some of the stiffer hitches do.

Thx for the advice on Andersen. So I think you are recommending the non-chain type? The ones with friction bars?

I am a scientist and my wife is an engineer, but I think anyone would struggle to understand all the physics involved. What I am thinking is, when the nose of the pickup dives, the hitch goes up and the bars go back, which surges the truck forward. Opposite happens when the nose bounces upward. I will have the engineer look at the tailgate cam to see if that hypothesis cks out.

I have never felt this before tho (and I have out at least 2k miles on that hitch). I have turned off sway control but it keeps coming back on, and yes it automatically switches to Tow Mode when I hook up the brakes.

I get there are hitch adjustments, but its either chain tension (plenty tight) or ball height. As mentioned the truck and trailer are fairly level. Since I don't have tools handy right now I laid out 200 bucks to have the ball raised to the max (as per 15 yr experienced installer) that won't contact the tailgate. I will see if that helps when we roll again but I doubt it.

I have not heard much feedback on software issues. Everyone is aware there are tip sensors in this truck right? I am still thinking there is some sloppy and reckless (hoping I don't get into a wreck) programming involved.

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[Bespectacled Ape]

Does this mean you didn’t manually activate it for calibration either? Or didn’t calibrate at all? It might be worth trying.

Also, did you set brake effort in the menu?

Now here is something I might not have done. I have stared at the menus but didn't see anything about brake controller calibration. My wife said she looked through the manual but found nothing. I think I mentioned that some controllers (I think I bought a Tenosha for my other truck?) has a G force feature (slam on brakes to get max braking). This would totally cause this surging oscillation but I see no way to kill it like on the Tenosha. My main question is whether Ford has included this with no adjustment.

Brake effort is set to max, but I am not manually applying the brakes, so it shouldn't be braking unless the software is doing it automatically.

 

[Yellow Buddy]

Now here is something I might not have done. I have stared at the menus but didn't see anything about brake controller calibration. My wife said she looked through the manual but found nothing. I think I mentioned that some controllers (I think I bought a Tenosha for my other truck?) has a G force feature (slam on brakes to get max braking). This would totally cause this surging oscillation but I see no way to kill it like on the Tenosha. My main question is whether Ford has included this with no adjustment.

Brake effort is set to max, but I am not manually applying the brakes, so it shouldn't be braking unless the software is doing it automatically.

Here’s a video, the screen is different but basically the same menus under trailer configuration.



Play around with the brake effort, if you’re set to Max (High) try lowering it. The High may actually be causing the surge, the gain as well.

 

[Yellow Buddy]

Thx for the advice on Andersen. So I think you are recommending the non-chain type? The ones with friction bars?

I haven’t used the chain type, so I can’t recommend against them.

But I have used friction bar types (Weigh Safe, Blue Ox, EAZ) as well as non-friction (ProPride 3P) and I notice a difference in the way it tows, especially when it’s not setup correctly. There is much more leeway on the friction types.

But if you’ve been using the Anderson hitch for a while you should be plenty familiar with the feel and it shouldn’t be the reason. Just double check to make sure everything is setup correctly, none of the plates and links are bent.

 

[Henry Ford]

I have not heard much feedback on software issues. Everyone is aware there are tip sensors in this truck right? I am still thinking there is some sloppy and reckless (hoping I don't get into a wreck) programming involved.

Most towing reports are something to the effect of, "this is the best tow vehicle I've ever driven." You aren't giving Ford enough credit. Trucks are kind of their thing.

 

[RickLightning]

Now here is something I might not have done. I have stared at the menus but didn't see anything about brake controller calibration. My wife said she looked through the manual but found nothing. I think I mentioned that some controllers (I think I bought a Tenosha for my other truck?) has a G force feature (slam on brakes to get max braking). This would totally cause this surging oscillation but I see no way to kill it like on the Tenosha. My main question is whether Ford has included this with no adjustment.

Brake effort is set to max, but I am not manually applying the brakes, so it shouldn't be braking unless the software is doing it automatically.

You absolutely want to set the brake controller per the manual. Doesn't the trailer checklist do that?

 

[Bespectacled Ape]

Here’s a video, the screen is different but basically the same menus under trailer configuration.



Play around with the brake effort, if you’re set to Max (High) try lowering it. The High may actually be causing the surge, the gain as well.

Thx, but again, how could gain be a problem when I am not touching the brake?

Jumping to the next level here, I am now wondering if the truck thinks I am about to hit something:
- nose dives into rolling bump
- cameras suddenly see pavement in front of them
- collision avoidance kicks in
- truck hits brake
- nose dives harder but eventually comes up
- cameras see nothing
- truck lets off
- nose dives again and cycle repeats

 

[Bespectacled Ape]

Most towing reports are something to the effect of, "this is the best tow vehicle I've ever driven." You aren't giving Ford enough credit. Trucks are kind of their thing.

Yeah, sorry, I am going to keep an open mind. Hope you can too Henry.

 

[Bespectacled Ape]

You absolutely want to set the brake controller per the manual. Doesn't the trailer checklist do that?

This is really bush league stuff. I absolutely know what a brake controller feels like when set too high. I don't think I have ever left a tire mark on the road with this trailer.

 

[Bespectacled Ape]

Here’s a video, the screen is different but basically the same menus under trailer configuration.



Play around with the brake effort, if you’re set to Max (High) try lowering it. The High may actually be causing the surge, the gain as well.

I think I have gone over the fact that I am not touching the brake, so how can the brake be activated? Are you saying it could not be applied automatically by the truck?

How well do people know how the anti-sway feature works? This is going to involves sensors and heavy programming, all of which can fail. FYI I know 5 computer languages and have a working knowledge of three more. This is complex stuff here guys.

If that is all you mean by calibration, yes I have calibrated it. If you are not familiar with a Tekonsha(?) controller, it is FAR more complicated to calibrate.

 

[RickLightning]

First, you are towing a 10,000 pound trailer. If you check the tongue weight of that trailer, and compare it to the sticker on the hitch receiver, you may find that the tongue weight plus the weight of the wdh, exceeds the rating. Second, compare the tongue weight plus wdh to your remaining payload, after reviewing the sticker on the door jamb plus adding in any additions to the truck including people, mats, bedliner, anything in the bed. Ideally, you weigh the trailer, but a simple calculation if it is really 10,000 pounds loaded is 1,300 pounds. Does your payload support that?

The best way to set a wdh is at a Cat Scale. Truck only, truck with trailer and no load bars, and then with the wdh properly connected. Second weight gives you the tongue weight. You want to move weight off the truck rear axle, and make sure no axle is over capacity, and make sure the front axle is close to the original weight so they it can steer properly. Measuring the height before and after allows to to get close to the original height.

 

[Yellow Buddy]

I think I have gone over the fact that I am not touching the brake, so how can the brake be activated? Are you saying it could not be applied automatically by the truck?

How well do people know how the anti-sway feature works? This is going to involves sensors and heavy programming, all of which can fail. FYI I know 5 computer languages and have a working knowledge of three more. This is complex stuff here guys.

If that is all you mean by calibration, yes I have calibrated it. If you are not familiar with a Tekonsha(?) controller, it is FAR more complicated to calibrate.

You will know when anti-sway actively kicks in. It’ll feel like someone took full control from you. You’ll get a flashing on the dash, a series of beeps, and potentially cause you to say WTF.

At least it did for me. It takes quite a bit of sway before the truck full intervenes and there is no “hmm, I wonder if anti sway kicked in”

Your surging, based on how you’re describing it IMO and based on my own experiences reflect a trailer setup that isn’t properly setup. Maybe it’s a different thing, but I experience similar things when I’m picking up a new trailer and rushing to get it home. After taking the time to appropriately calibrate the brakes, that includes effort as well as gain, setup my heights correctly, that means measuring at the frame, and getting my weight right, which means taking it to the scale, all the symptoms go away.

For me…when I diagnose
- Usually surging is braking setup, calibration (includes trailer inspection for brake adjustments)
- Usually porpoising is hitch height, and weight distribution.
- Usually swaying is leveling and weight distribution.

 

[RickLightning]

Bingo

 

[Bespectacled Ape]

I think you are way overthinking this situation.

I am not aware of any active measures the truck takes with the throttle while towing. I don't believe there is any software assistance here.

If the truck is hitting the brakes it isn't from it thinking there is something in front of it. That would fire off all kids of precollision warnings, etc. If there is brake application it is in the trailer brake controller side of things.

You mentioned previously that you can feel the front tires gripping or losing traction, something like that. That should NOT be happening, not unless you are hammering the throttle. This very much suggests a weight imbalance issue.

OK, thx for your input, and I appreciate the care with which you say "I am not aware of" and "I don't believe" and "suggests." I am not so sure there would be a warning for automatic brake controller input, eg like the Tekonsha (calibration issue that doesn't seem to exist on the Ford).

Not sure what you mean about the front tires. As mentioned they are stock and not really truck tires. They usually equip these because they are cheaper and give a softer ride for the test drive. They could be deforming frighteningly and I just can't see it.

And it has already been hammered into this thread that people are focusing on something I have done wrong, but as mentioned I am exploring the idea that I actually have a lot of experience towing and I have never felt this "Crazy Surging." Still not sure anyone has. As mentioned there is absolutely the likelihood that this is a software issue. I have adjusted weights and all settings to the limits (and doubt this is just a ball height issue), so IF it isn't software (which is very clearly the point of this thread, and people here seem just not to know) then it is a WDH design issue that fails with this particular truck and trailer geometry.

The period (time of back and forth surge) and intensity leads me to believe it is in fact WDH chain swing, brought on by software. FYI the surging is not the same period as any porpoising. I can deal with that. Bush league. This is different. Like two overlapping sine waves of different frequency, perhaps even in harmonic resonance with chain length. Do you follow me?

I appreciate all the careful input and will scratch my head to think about what physical adjustments could be made, but I think this is all I am going to get out of this thread.

 

[Bespectacled Ape]

Most towing reports are something to the effect of, "this is the best tow vehicle I've ever driven." You aren't giving Ford enough credit. Trucks are kind of their thing.

And don't get me wrong, this is a totally a "beast" of a truck and I am very happy with it, but no I am not going to trust the programming. Case in point, I am glad the latest update fixed one our window issue, but I am 100% positive the "feature" of automatically rolling the window all the way up will result in the death of many children. All it takes is sticking a head out the window and pulling up on the button. The force required to stop the window is more than enough to snap a little spine or fracture a hyoid. All for convenience?

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