Lightning range fail

[Gimme_my_MME]

No, the dealer confirmed that the LVB was bad. They haven't resolved the problem yet.

Where did they say the dealer confirmed LVB was bad?

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[RickLightning]

I've taken 1/2 dozen trips in our Mach-E. 1,200 miles to Florida, 800 miles to Boston, and a bunch of day trips of 700 or so miles. The impact of charging on your day greatly depends on many things.

1) Leaving each day with 100%, which buys you an hour of driving.
2) How many miles you drive per day, so that your last "stop" is the end of your day, that helps.

In general, I have a 20% rule. If the drive is an 8 hour drive, roughly add 1.6 hours for charging. Again, it depends on the length of the drive, and whether you drive to 20% or less and then charge overnight. That's in the nice weather. In winter, when 40% range is lost, it's a lot of stopping.

 

[EVTruckGuy]

No, the dealer confirmed that the LVB was bad. They haven't resolved the problem yet.

I agree it's probably a LVB problem, but the OP is denying this. See the quote below from the OP who keeps disagreeing with people who suggest it is the LVB or something related to the LVB.

I just don't think it could possibly be the 12 volt battery.

Where did they say the dealer confirmed LVB was bad?

They didn't... Yet. I suspect this info will be coming soon now that the dealer has the truck. I have no idea what Ricklightning is referring to, but the OP never stated the dealer identified that the LVB is bad. The OP was still denying this possibility in their latest posts.

 

[FlasherZ]

I agree it's probably a LVB problem, but the OP is denying this. See the quote below from the OP who keeps disagreeing with people who suggest it is the LVB or something related to the LVB.

I'm curious and anxiously awaiting the determination. I can't say that I've ever seen a car that exhibits that type of interaction between LV and HV systems, but upthread someone reported the same. If it is, hey, we learned something and we have to keep an eye on those even more closely.

Tesla's software design is such that if it detects a bad LVB via low voltage, it powers up the DC-DC converter and leaves it on permanently to keep powering the 12v systems until the LVB is replaced. However, there are failure scenarios that are unrecoverable, such as a shorted LVB cell, which will cause a full power-down and a tow-truck drag. They happen with far less frequency, which is a good thing.

I just wouldn't expect it to happen so soon in a Lightning. Good luck to the OP.

 

[Sklith]

Any EV with LVB issues should still be able to be 'jumped' though. I carry a jump kit in the frunk of my Model 3 so if it dies I can use a 9V battery to pop the lid and jump it. I've done it once before.

 

[sotek2345]

To be fair 1000km is like 650mi, about 150mi(25% less distance). I agree its not hours but if you're driving 800mi in a day you're already looking at what 13hrs behind the wheel, spending 1.5-2hrs charging extra is not appealing at all.

It can be done sure, but the impact takes off the more you drive per day.

Last time we did an 800 (really 826) mile trip, it took us (me, wife, 2 kids - 15 and 12 at the time) 15.5 hours door to door in a 2016 F150. Non driving time was for meals, fueling, and bathroom stops. Route planner on the same trip says.....15.5 hours for the Lightning. Now, it won't be perfect because we won't be able to perfectly align all needed stops with ideal charging locations, but it will be very close.

 

[EVTruckGuy]

I'm curious and anxiously awaiting the determination. I can't say that I've ever seen a car that exhibits that type of interaction between LV and HV systems, but upthread someone reported the same. If it is, hey, we learned something and we have to keep an eye on those even more closely.

Tesla's software design is such that if it detects a bad LVB via low voltage, it powers up the DC-DC converter and leaves it on permanently to keep powering the 12v systems until the LVB is replaced. However, there are failure scenarios that are unrecoverable, such as a shorted LVB cell, which will cause a full power-down and a tow-truck drag. They happen with far less frequency, which is a good thing.

I just wouldn't expect it to happen so soon in a Lightning. Good luck to the OP.

So far the only time I've seen this problem is with the Ford Mach E. It happened to a ton of different people with the Mach E shortly after taking delivery. The cars turned into bricks until dealers replaced the low voltage battery and often other related parts that controlled how the HVB was used to charge the LVB on demand.

I agree it shouldn't happen on a brand new vehicle, but it does happen often to people shortly after taking delivery on Mach E forums.

 

[EVTruckGuy]

Any EV with LVB issues should still be able to be 'jumped' though. I carry a jump kit in the frunk of my Model 3 so if it dies I can use a 9V battery to pop the lid and jump it. I've done it once before.

I agree. I don't think the OP ever tried this due to not believing this could be the culprit.

Also, I'm not sure how easy it is to access the 12V battery to jump it. It is not easy to do this on the Mach E, but hopefully Ford learned from that mistake and provided easier access to the 12V battery on the Lightning.

Ford was so confident Mach E owners would never need to access their 12 V batteries they didn't provide normal access to it. They realized quickly that faulty software and battery management systems resulted in a lot of 12V batteries not charging correctly resulting in bricked cars. I suspect they took this into consideration when designing the Lightning 12 V access.

It sounds like Tesla was much smarter regarding 12V battery access for jumping.

 

[FlasherZ]

It sounds like Tesla was much smarter regarding 12V. Battery access for jumping.

I wouldn't say that... they gave you access to the terminals, but if you want access to the LVB in a Model S or X, *yikes* and good luck!

I replaced mine with a Ohmmu Li-Ion version because it's so much of a pain in the ass to replace every 2-3 years (now that I'm out of warranty).

 

[greenne]

I agree. I don't think the OP ever tried this due to not believing this could be the culprit.

Also, I'm not sure how easy it is to access the 12V battery to jump it. It is not easy to do this on the Mach E, but hopefully Ford learned from that mistake and provided easier access to the 12V battery on the Lightning.

Ford was so confident Mach E owners would never need to access their 12 V batteries they didn't provide normal access to it. They realized quickly that faulty software and battery management systems resulted in a lot of 12V batteries not charging correctly resulting in bricked cars. I suspect they took this into consideration when designing the Lightning 12 V access.

It sounds like Tesla was much smarter regarding 12V battery access for jumping.

If you can get the frunk open its right behind the back panel of frunk compartment, right? Seems easy to get to.

 

[Nate977p]

We drive medium haul trips a lot. Did PA and back in about 24 hours 2 weekends back ~600 miles.

We love the Model 3P, but man are we far off rated range. My safety number is 2 miles/% for winter (so slightly higher in summer). I fully ignore the Tesla estimator as it is wildly inaccurate for us.

But man is there no other car I would prefer to road trip in. On the 800 mile example, we would leave at 100% and get a real 200 miles. Charge for 25 minutes to get to 80%, drive about 180 miles, and repeat this 2x. Then our last stop would be for about 10 minutes to get to destination w/charging.

So let's say we start at 9 am:
-Drive 3 hours
-12:00: Charge for ~30 minutes bathroom, walk dogs, and eat quick lunch
-Drive 2.5 hours
-3:00: Charge for ~25 minutes, clean up car, bathroom, stretch legs, walk dogs.
-Drive 2.5 hours
-6:00: Charge for an hour or so as we sit down at dinner, stretch legs, wall dogs.
-Drive 2.5 hours.
-9:00: Charge for 25 minutes, walk dogs, stretch legs.
-Drive 2 hours
-11:30: Charge for 10 minutes
-12:30 destination.

I may have nis-mathed here, but assuming my car is only gets about 70% efficiency from new (70% of 310 miles when rated new), I see about 13.5 hours of driving and about 2 hours of charging. Of which, 1.5 hours of that charging we would do regardless.

Everyone is different, but the EV for road tripping is a no brainer for us, and I only see 30 minutes added to our time compared to an ICE. When we had an ICE and the Model 3, we would only use ICE for around town and the Model 3 was our choice for longer drives.

Now there are plenty of people who will say, and I am sure do, drive 5-8 hours straight. That is not how we do it; we want to enjoy the drive some. The breaks every 2.5-3 hours typically line up well and we try to make nice stops out of them. We also push it, with most charging stops happening at or below 5% SoC. Even if you are one to drive many hours straight, on 800 miles, I think you are stopping for at least an hour in that time for bathroom, strethch and supplies. If you pack everything incredibly well and have a 400+ mile range ICE I can see 30 minutes of stops.

Regardless, each to their own, but after almost 100k and tens of thousands of road trip miles, I hate taking an ICE compared to EV.

NOW there is one big difference here, the Tesla network. I do not think the F150L will be our choice for rides over 300 miles. With SuperChargers we don't pre plan anymore, they are everywhere and typically we pass 7+ on each 200 mile leg. We did a 300 mile RT run the first night with the F150L and boy is it different feeling, even from one stop. Those stops that are 25-30 min, quickly become 45 minutes. Most stations seems to be off the highway and the handshake for Plug and Charge took 2-3 minutes. So I think we are looking at 50-60 minutes total. Add to that the risk of them being broken, no longer can I trust planning arriving with 0-5% and now I need a buffer of 10-15%. So in the F150L, I think the same trip would be ~4 hours of stops with the efficiency I am averaging (2.0), with much more waiting and hassle. That I don't look forward to.

Of course, each to their own and the road warrior going 6/7/8 hours in a stint and treats each stop as a pit stop is going to lose an hour to hour and half in an EV, but I think the vast majority of people are going to lose 0-30 minutes.

As FYI we are very fast paced people with 2 dogs and no kids (yet). We greatly appreciate efficiency, and the above driving schedule is perfect for us to get somewhere fast and still enjoy a few stops.

 

[Sklith]

Destination charging at hotels makes it all worth it. Don't pass up on booking at hotels with free charging, it's a game changer.

 

[EVTruckGuy]

If you can get the frunk open its right behind the back panel of frunk compartment, right? Seems easy to get to.

You have to remove 2 panels in the Mach E frunk to get to the battery. Before that, you need to open a small access panel on the front bumper area, use an external power supply to provide the energy to pop the frunk, then you can remove the panels to get to the battery.

It's not hard to do in the sense that you don't need to be a mechanic to do it, but it's certainly more cumbersome than jumping nearly any other vehicle.



Here is an old Darren Palmer quote made right before all the LVB failures occured. Ford was completely blindsided by the need to provide easy access for jumping.

 

[greenne]

You have to remove 2 panels in the Mach E frunk to get to the battery. Before that, you need to open a mall access panel on the front bumper area, use an external power supply to provide the energy to pop the drunk, then you can remove the pames to get to the battery.

It's not hard to do in the sense that you don't need to be a mechanic to do it, but it's certainly more cumbersome.than jumping nearly any other vehicle.

I meant the Lightning..I think it is located along the back edge of the trunk.

https://www.f150lightningforum.com/...–-w-12v-battery-power-and-ground-points.7461/

 

[Sklith]

You have to remove 2 panels in the Mach E frunk to get to the battery. Before that, you need to open a mall access panel on the front bumper area, use an external power supply to provide the energy to pop the drunk, then you can remove the panels to get to the battery.

It's not hard to do in the sense that you don't need to be a mechanic to do it, but it's certainly more cumbersome than jumping nearly any other vehicle.

It's very similar to jumping a Model 3 except the Tesla has 1 panel instead of 2 to pop. Pretty simple stuff in my opinion.

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