Inside EV‘s China auto show-we are toast!

[Scorpio3d]

TLDW-too long did not watch:
US auto makers are toast!
Non-China auto makers are toast!

This is an hour long video but very interesting and very scary.

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[Mal106]

Cheap labor and theft, then improvement, of intellectual property will trump (no pun intended) a high standard of living every time.

 

[Maxx]

Cheap labor and theft, then improvement, of intellectual property will trump (no pun intended) a high standard of living every time.

Chinese universities now graduate almost twice as many STEM Ph.D.s as the U.S.-about 77,000 per year compared to 40,000 in the U.S. If international students are excluded from the U.S. figures, China produces more than three times as many STEM Ph.D.s as the U.S. Now it is European and American companies doing teardown of BYDs to see how they did it.

BYD, Geely and Foxconn are moving fast toward dark factories (all robots and sensors with no humans running 24/7)

They put more priority on subsidizing their EV industry.

P.s. having the option to purchase an affordable vehicle so you don’t have to work as hard, gives you more free time. That is high standard of living in my book.

 

[Tony Burgh]

Cheap labor and theft, then improvement, of intellectual property will trump (no pun intended) a high standard of living every time.

I’m old enough to remember the same complaints and explanations of Japanese cars and trucks in the 70’s. Lather, rinse, repeat.

I worked for an American energy/chemical company which had the philosophy that specialty chemicals were specialties for their first year. After that, they are commodities and you better be the low cost producer to survive. That holds for technology today.

 

[trev5150]

Chinese universities now graduate almost twice as many STEM Ph.D.s as the U.S.-about 77,000 per year compared to 40,000 in the U.S. If international students are excluded from the U.S. figures, China produces more than three times as many STEM Ph.D.s as the U.S. Now it is European and American companies doing teardown of BYDs to see how they did it.

BYD, Geely and Foxconn are moving fast toward dark factories (all robots and sensors with no humans running 24/7)

They put more priority on subsidizing their EV industry.

A STEM PhD from China only has value in China. It's a meaningless scrap of paper everywhere else. They do not allow for the rigor of the academic process. They publish high volumes of papers of dubious value in the sciences. It looks like they're doing a lot but are they?

People need to get it through their heads that every single piece of statistical information coming out of China is a lie. Sometimes well crafted, other times half-assed at best.

They lie about their population and their fert rate - they are actually going to slip into irrelevance because they didn't cancel the one child policy fast enough. Now the pop tree is scooped out at the bottom and they'll never recover, just like Japan and most Scandi countries. Unrecoverable population decline. They literally cannot boom-boom their way out of it at this point. Same with Russia, and that's why they invaded Ukraine when they did. If they had waited 10 years they never would have had the bodies to throw at the problem.

The Chinese innovate nothing. They steal, study, and marginally improve. They are not coming up with the next big thing. It's not in their culture to create solutions.

They lie about the strength of their military. They show out hot new jets and things like that but they will never be able to train enough pilots at scale to be a real threat. That's all they can do, threaten. They boast having aircraft carriers - they have yet to reliably launch and recover aircraft from the only ship they're calling an aircraft carrier. It's all smoke and mirrors and BS.

And all those subsidies are a lie. The companies are all government owned. The source of subsidy funding... you're talking about a communist country. The tax rate is, for all intents and purposes, 100%.

China's main export is bullshit.

P.s. having the option to purchase an affordable vehicle so you don’t have to work as hard, gives you more free time. That is high standard of living in my book.

This is honestly the most out of touch statement I've read in a good long while. How often do you see someone with a lower income have more free time? There has always been an inverse relationship between salary and effort and that's not going to change because cheaper EV's are coming from China.

 

[Maxx]

People need to get it through their heads that every single piece of statistical information coming out of China is a lie. Sometimes well crafted, other times half-assed at best.

People need to do no such thing. They just need to look at their output in every field. Even if they steal something from us, that only means they are better at stealing too. Of course they B.S. but if you watch our news, they cannot hold a candle to us when it comes to B.S.

They lie about their population and their fert rate - they are actually going to slip into irrelevance because they didn't cancel the one child policy fast enough. Now the pop tree is scooped out at the bottom and they'll never recover, just like Japan and most Scandi countries. Unrecoverable population decline. They literally cannot boom-boom their way out of it at this point. Same with Russia, and that's why they invaded Ukraine when they did. If they had waited 10 years they never would have had the bodies to throw at the problem.

All true but what does that have to do with EV innovation? Dude you need to take some chill pills. There is a reason I don’t live in China. I still think U.S. is a better overall place to live in for tons of reasons. This is about U.S. EV industry vs China’s EV industry.

This is honestly the most out of touch statement I've read in a good long while. How often do you see someone with a lower income have more free time?

Every day.

The Chinese innovate nothing

this is the most out of touch statement I have heard in a long while.

 

[trev5150]

Response in line

People need to do no such thing. They just need to look at their output in every field.

Output is not innovation.

Even if they steal something from us, that only means they are better at stealing too. Of course they B.S. but if you watch our news, they cannot hold a candle to us when it comes to B.S.




All true but what does that have to do with EV innovation?

Well, I just stated, and you agreed, that they steal everything and they're really good at it, and therefore (and the evidence sill show) that they aren't innovating. They're just copying and streamlining production, their one true talent.

Dude you need to take some chill pills.

What make you think I am unchill? Just having a discussion. You need to not automatically take someone responding to you with a differing opinion or viewpoint as a personal attack. Unclench thine sphincter and join the world.

There is a reason I don’t live in China.

Yeah, I know of no one who would choose to live there. Literally never met someone who was just counting the days until they could move there.

I still think U.S. is a better overall place to live in for tons of reasons.

This was never in question.

This is about U.S. EV industry vs China’s EV industry.

I am not and will never be concerned about China's industry. We have seen very recently that we can control how their output affects our economy. We can let just as much of whatever goods into our country as they let of ours into their country. We can control supply and price just as much as they do. We just have to be willing to play that game. We have shown that we are. They know now that they cannot just dump product in our ports and manipulate markets.

Every day.

God Bless America.

 

[Mal106]

I have seen reviews of several of their EVs and they are pretty darn good if not original. As stated above, Japan dumped cars and just about killed our auto industry in the 70's. While innovation is not the Chinese strong point and control of their reporting is quite strict, monitary policy and subsidies keep prices low to the point they could kill our EV industry other than maybe Tesla. Tarrifs may or may not prevent a nasty blow to the American EV.

China, will likely slip their EVs in through Mexico claiming added value in country.

Europe charges high tarrifs on Chinese EVs stating unfair subsidies.

UK has caved and is enjoying cheap Chinese EVs but their auto industry was DOA anyway.

The American consumer is fickle. If descent and cheap there is little loyalty to US companies. In fact only the most US made EVs are shunned. I don't like it .... but I understand.

 

[Scorpio3d]

The big problem is we look at the next year or two or four the Chinese have been looking ahead to 2025-2035, 2050 for like 20 years.

I think overall, we are the best most innovative country in the world that is why everyone looks to us. The problem is we get big and fat and complacent, we fight with each other but when our backs are against the wall and we come together there is no one that is better and no one can stop us!

Back in the day the Japanese car companies, and honestly many other technologies, did leapfrog us but then our backs were against the wall and we came out fighting and took our leadership position back, fast-forward to now and the Chinese car companies and some other technologies have leap frogged us, time for us to pull up our boot straps and get to work!

 

[Tony Burgh]

Japan dumped cars and just about killed our auto industry in the 70's.

Nope. The Japanese cars were higher quality (read some history about US companies studying Japanese production techniques) and forced the US auto industry to self evaluate and make corrections. Japan, Inc actually made American industry buck up and get better. I speak from living it.

If you doubt, read about one side galvanized sheet metal and why Toyota and Datsun ( now Nissan) adopted it but Detroit did not until they had to. One side galvanized was invented by ………………(wait for it)…………………………..USSteel.

 

[pullinggs]

Apologies to the OP for helping to hijack this thread.

People need to get it through their heads that every single piece of statistical information coming out of China is a lie. Sometimes well crafted, other times half-assed at best.

Whereas the information coming out of The White House these days is ......what, exactly?

I worked in pharmaceutical development for 35 years. Back when I started it was true that we were cautious about the quality of a degree earned in China. But, like they do, China identified this as a problem and focused enormous resources on the solution. Fast-forward 30 years and many PIs (i.e., the people in charge of academic research) in China carry PhDs from western universities, and they are doing innovative work.

The EV-thing is exactly the same. Does China lie, cheat, and steal? Absolutely. But they also invest where they see opportunity, and that's why they are now a decade ahead of us in this arena. They are moving forward with intention while we are trying desperately to hang on to the past.

It's time for us to wake up; we are on the cusp of losing our standing as the world's research powerhouse.

Consider this: Our government just earmarked an ENORMOUS budget to push a vaccine technology that the research world abandoned in the 70's. Simultaneously, they slashed research funding across all disciplines. Does that sound like the way to "drive innovation" to you?

 

[Maxx]

The big problem is we look at the next year or two or four the Chinese have been looking ahead to 2025-2035, 2050 for like 20 years.

I think overall, we are the best most innovative country in the world that is why everyone looks to us. The problem is we get big and fat and complacent, we fight with each other but when our backs are against the wall and we come together there is no one that is better and no one can stop us!

Back in the day the Japanese car companies, and honestly many other technologies, did leapfrog us but then our backs were against the wall and we came out fighting and took our leadership position back, fast-forward to now and the Chinese car companies and some other technologies have leap frogged us, time for us to pull up our boot straps and get to work!

I agree. we have what it takes to beat anyone in any field. But the way we beat them is by being honest with ourselves and acknowledge the trajectory of how things are really going not by sticking our overinflated heads in the sand.

https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/patents-by-country

 

[Scorpio3d]

I agree. we have what it takes to beat anyone in any field. But the way we beat them is by being honest with ourselves and acknowledge the trajectory of how things are really going not by sticking our overinflated heads in the sand.

https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/patents-by-country

Maybe we should start stealing their IP!

 

[Mal106]

Japanese cars were indeed better and with better fuel economy, good reasons to kill Detroit. But they were accused of dumping as well. Not as simple as "nope". They even voluntarily restricted exports in the early 80's likely due to such accusations.

I also lived it buying a used 1971 Subaru in 1972. Nice little tin can but after replacing the front brakes that were mounted inboard against the trannie, I swore I'd never do it again.

 

[Maxx]

Maybe we should start stealing their IP!

Definitely much cheaper. We just need to steal their top hackers first. If we pay each $200K a year, with our defense budget we could get an army of them (2.2 million hackers). We wouldn’t have to innovate at all.

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