2023 F-150 Lightning: battery hit 419°F with zero warning, zero fault code, zero shutdown

[thorndike]

I hope they are parking THAT truck away from any building, vehicles, or landscaping, never can tell when . . . .whoosh! there it goes,

One of my lines of evidence reported to FORD is that the Service manager who founnd the temps, was concerned about parking the truck in a service bay. The fact that he was afraid of a fire speaks volumes.

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[thorndike]

OP, have you filed a formal Safety Complaint at NHTSA?

Yes, that was done a few weeks ago.

 

[thorndike]

I realize and appreciate that the first instinct is to try and figure out the problem (particularly as an engineer, that is my first instinct as well), but I think the bigger issue here is that the dealer has reproduced the issue multiple times and corporate is stonewalling rather than constructively moving forward. Not a good look, Ford.

Yep. I was never going to post anything public because I expected FORD would not want this public. After 7-8 weeks of stonewalling, I decided to post everything.

 

[thorndike]

I lean towards verbose, obviously AI generated content as being likely inconsistent, and I’m betting incomplete.

In any case I think the legal threats out the gate are slowing down this process for this owner.

There were no legal threats for nearly 8 weeks. The FORD FSE doesn't know what is going on and is just throwing stuff at the wall to see what sticks. I waited 8 weeks to even post my problems. I even contacted the executive offices because I figured FORD wouldn't want a thermal issue publicized. Now, despite not knowing the problem, and being given every bit of evidence, they refuse to buyback the truck.

 

[thorndike]

Did it ever smell hot? My heat pump hot water heater has the sensors go out regularly and it reports crazy high temps like that. At 400F I‘m pretty sure stuff would smell hot, there is a unique smell to melting wire insulation or even high temperature insulation that is approaching the limit. This is over 200C, the upper end of ‘normal’ wires can handle up to 90C.

If it were truly getting that hot I’d think that they would not want to have the vehicle in the shop. I’d then suspect a short and you don’t want an improvised heater element on top of a lithium NMC battery.

no smells at all. just not cooling either while driving or charging.

 

[ClevelandBeemer]

One of my lines of evidence reported to FORD is that the Service manager who founnd the temps, was concerned about parking the truck in a service bay. The fact that he was afraid of a fire speaks volumes.

Not sure it speaks volumes. Just means they’re concerned that the BMS/thermal protections may not be functioning correctly. No need for undue risk.

 

[Free Charging]

no smells at all. just not cooling either while driving or charging.

Really think through this… truck needs to be fixed under warranty but nothing in the cooling loop ever reached those temperatures.

 

[thorndike]

Really think through this… truck needs to be fixed under warranty but nothing in the cooling loop ever reached those temperatures.

I understand what you are saying. But I am NOT an FSE, so the ONLY evidence I can use is what FORD's software and service manager tell me. If the software is incorrect that is FORD's issue, not mine. I am unable to assume anything that hasn't been proven.

 

[MaintGrl]

Yep. I was never going to post anything public because I expected FORD would not want this public. After 7-8 weeks of stonewalling, I decided to post everything.

Understandable...

 

[swajames]

But when those reported numbers can't possibly be right but you continue to treat them as though they were because it helps your case it moves things into grift territory IMO.

 

[chl]

Alas, that's quite common.

My colleague used to have a Volt - but because two thermistors died (and GM was unwilling to really work on replacing them) they ended upsetting into a Bolt instead.

My Vectrix VX-1 was designed initially without ANY thermal management (NiMH cells) and for whatever reason, someone decided to add them last-minute.

I spoke to the engineer who was on the team responsible for it. And by that I mean one person. He had to pull all-nighters, ended up getting the boards designed and working, but because Vectrix rushed the production, they never had proper conformal coating.

15+ years later, and VX-1 owners are regularly reporting their bikes dying because the thermistors/temperature boards are dying.

Yes, I'm upgrading my bike to LiIon - and yes I'll be building my own thermistor sensor setup.

Wow never heard about that problem. No active cooling in my 2012 Leaf, but it does apparently have 4 temp sensors used when the battery gets too cold so the heater can warm it in really, really, cold temps, or to throttle back DC charging current if the battery gets too hot...I haven't heard of the Leafs having anything like what this Lightning is experiencing, but maybe I missed it...

 

[chl]

I have talked to a lawyer friend who has given me some advice. He also pointed out that while I have what I consider a strong case, a judge might not due to contract language and then I would be liable for FORDs legal expenses. That is a road I can't afford to go down at this point.

Hopefully Ford will come through so you can avoid that.

 

[chl]

Better safe than on fire.

I had a cylinder head temp sensor fail in my 2019 2.7l and it went into limp mode. Had a fuel pump fail in another car and it shut down. Had a coil pack fail in another car and it shut down. Things break, it's not a big deal IF you know how to fix it.

On another note, 50/50 motorcraft coolant boils at 265 deg F maybe 300f under pressure. It's most likely the module or sensor. They need to start throwing parts at it.

Yes, true.
But look at the reading it's giving - a melt-down temperature!

But what I am saying is a BAD sensor, if that's what we have here.

How does the system know it is a bad sensor?
Well, one way would be some sensor testing periodically like at every boot up to be sure they are accurate and working.
How can the system test a thermistor?
Temporarily disconnect it, connect to test its resistance at current temperature, raise or lower temperature and see if it responds as it should by measuring the resistance change.
Also, have redundant sensors at the same location and watch for differences between them, if outside a difference threshold, set a flag to test and replace them.

Just spitballing here, probably other ways to design a safe but reliable system...like they do at nuclear power plants...yes, three mile island is a bad example...so is this Lightning apparently.

Still it could be the module that receives the sensor data that's running amok, and the sensors are OK.
I think that is what the software fix attempt was about.
When it didn't work, then they are perplexed.
The last thing they want to do is replace all the batteries in case it is a sensor until they know for sure.

 

[chl]

No doubt the OP is rightfully frustrated.

We need the corporate engineering team to get with the technician on the ground and properly diagnose the root issue(s) then fix the matter.

Exactly.

 

[chl]

There is a difference between what I 'expect' is inaccurate and what FORDs sensors show. I am not an FSE, so I can only post and display what their systems tell me. Nothing in my website, or reports is assumed. EVERYTHING is documented. Whether 419 is correct or not, is not my call, it is what FORD's software reported.

Right, but if your truck is not on fire, then the temps are wrong and the temp being reported is 'inaccurate' Ford could easily check that with a thermal / infrared thermometer / gun pointed at the truck battery.

The fact they were afraid to keep it in the bay means they are not using common sense which says no way those temp readings could be correct.

Even AI has more common sense than they do:

"...because lithium-ion batteries decompose and burn at far lower temperatures, a reading of 419°F indicates a faulty temperature sensor (thermistor), a glitch in the data PIDs, or an open circuit/infinite resistance rather than the actual physical temperature of the pack..."

So it is clear they don't know much about Li batteries, or the Lightning...alas...

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