Generators: Inverter or Standard

[ZSC100]

Fire camp gen powering refers. Coincidence? Maybe, but not worth the risk to me. Clean power for me from now on... As an aside, that same fire the lightning powered a remote briefing on the Klamath!

ALL instances of charge failures, that set DTC's in the SOBDMA I've seen have been caused by EVSE and ground/neutral problems. DTC's can be cleared immediately with a scan tool, or will clear on their own generally after a few power cycles and a few tries with a proper EVSE setup.

It absolutely could've been the case that a compressor from a "refer" caused a charge session to fail from voltage dip when it cycled on. Being on that supply drawing additional load charging the truck could certainly be labeled dirty power, but a more proper term would be insufficient power.

Regardless, don't be afraid to try things like this. Trust me there is virtually NO way to damage your truck by trying stuff like this. The power electronics were built with protection for all of this in mind in addition to literal lightning strikes to your grid/house/ and even the truck.

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[Battalion3419]

ALL instances of charge failures, that set DTC's in the SOBDMA I've seen have been caused by EVSE and ground/neutral problems. DTC's can be cleared immediately with a scan tool, or will clear on their own generally after a few power cycles and a few tries with a proper EVSE setup.

It absolutely could've been the case that a compressor from a "refer" caused a charge session to fail from voltage dip when it cycled on. Being on that supply drawing additional load charging the truck could certainly be labeled dirty power, but a more proper term would be insufficient power.

Regardless, don't be afraid to try things like this. Trust me there is virtually NO way to damage your truck by trying stuff like this. The power electronics were built with protection for all of this in mind in addition to literal lightning strikes to your grid/house/ and even the truck.

Thank you for the best explanation yet! As a Logistics Section Chief, I will get this question often as more BEV's end up in our base camps and command posts looking for electrons. However, that 16 hour drive down the Cali coast on level 2 chargers has lasting scars
Best Regards,
B3419 (ret)

 

[richguy82]

I thought you had to have an inverter generator to charge the truck. I didn’t think it would accept dirty power.

 

[chl]

Consumer reports is where the AI got its info:

https://www.consumerreports.org/hom...-and-cons-of-inverter-generators-a1104840654/

Inverter generators generate alternating current like regular gas generators, then convert the AC to DC and then convert it back to AC again.

So a regular generator has a motor driven alternator and a voltage regulator to clean up the fluctuations in voltage produced.

However, a regular generator can have up to 25% total harmonic distortion (THD) and even produce voltage surges..

So when I use my gas generator, I run the AC through surge suppressors when powering things like my PC.

Manufacturers should state the THD of their generator in their literature. Take a look at that when decided what to buy.

An inverter generator produces far less as low as 1% THD. They have additional processing to clean up the output via rectifying circuitry - the going from AC to DC back to AC.

This does use/waste some electrical power via heat. However, inverter generators are more efficient at sipping gas because they control the speed of the engine dependent on the electrical load where regular generators run at full rpm all the time. They are also generally quieter.

The main con of an inverter generator is the cost - more expensive than a regular generator generally.

So, AI got it right.

PS: I am electrical engineer (MSCEE).

This is a basic tutorial on how inverter generators work from an inverter generator manufacturer. ECOFLOW.

https://www.ecoflow.com/us/blog/how-does-inverter-generator-work

 

[chl]

This is another short explanation of THD and which generators are better/have less (inverter generators):

https://wenproducts.com/blogs/resou...-distortion-thd-in-generators-an-introduction

 

[WXman]

So my takeaway after reading through this thread is that paying more for an inverter generator isn't necessary for charging a Lightning truck. Any quality generator will do.

Timely, because I'm shopping them. I'm leaning toward the Westinghouse brand on Amazon with the 50 amp NEMA outlet.

 

[PJnc284]

The beastly 28k/20k we were looking at in the cwd thread claims a THD of < 5%.

 

[ZSC100]

Everything being said here is confusing at best. The reality is that small/cheap/basic generators have been around for a long time and have varying quality of windings, physical build quality, varying exciter quality, and varying governor controls, there is no standard, just like there is no standard for the electronic design of the hardware or software in a Chinese inverter module.

I can tell you this: the Ford Lightning's on board charger which is made by Delta Electronics (Taiwan)doesn't care what kind of power you put into it. There is absolutely no need to to buy an inverter generator to charge the Lightning (and I'd venture to guess any other EV). There's also no need (IMO) to buy an inverter generator for any reason other than perhaps sensitive audio or radio equipment, for electric noise reasons.

There is another thread I saw today talking about "pure sine wave" with pro power. A guy showing that pro power produces a good looking sine wave. This is very equivalent to the inverter in most inverter generators and I can tell you that my 120V pro power plug in my bed does not like to start or run inductive loads. I have tried multiple things that it would not power where a good old electro-mechanical generator worked. The hype around inverter generators is just that,, Hype...

There are NO purpose built fossil fuel home backup generators to my knowledge that utilize inverters. Look at any of the offerings by the big names, Generac, Cummins, ONAN. That should tell you that Inverter generators are just marketing hype,,,, again, unless you are a HAM operator or Audiophile.

 

[MaintGrl]

Everything being said here is confusing at best. The reality is that small/cheap/basic generators have been around for a long time and have varying quality of windings, physical build quality, varying exciter quality, and varying governor controls, there is no standard, just like there is no standard for the electronic design of the hardware or software in a Chinese inverter module.

I can tell you this: the Ford Lightning's on board charger which is made by Delta Electronics (Taiwan)doesn't care what kind of power you put into it. There is absolutely no need to to buy an inverter generator to charge the Lightning (and I'd venture to guess any other EV). There's also no need (IMO) to buy an inverter generator for any reason other than perhaps sensitive audio or radio equipment, for electric noise reasons.

There is another thread I saw today talking about "pure sine wave" with pro power. A guy showing that pro power produces a good looking sine wave. This is very equivalent to the inverter in most inverter generators and I can tell you that my 120V pro power plug in my bed does not like to start or run inductive loads. I have tried multiple things that it would not power where a good old electro-mechanical generator worked. The hype around inverter generators is just that,, Hype...

There are NO purpose built fossil fuel home backup generators to my knowledge that utilize inverters. Look at any of the offerings by the big names, Generac, Cummins, ONAN. That should tell you that Inverter generators are just marketing hype,,,, again, unless you are a HAM operator or Audiophile.

Thank you for the clarification....I appreciate it... Again....I know just enough to get me into trouble,,,
I'm not an electrical engineer . . but I may be one for Halloween

 

[ZSC100]

The beastly 28k/20k we were looking at in the cwd thread claims a THD of < 5%.

Yea, if I was richer than a middle class electrical engineer I'd go out and buy this right now for CWD testing.

https://www.lowes.com/pd/Ford-Tri-fuel-Portable-Generator/5016769813

Any generator over 20kW is going to be big enough to have good mechanical inertia, physical winding accuracy, and a stable exciter capacity to provide clean enough power for any application. Also, I bet this thing can generate 19kW without breaking a sweat. To bad I'm also not rich enough to own an ER with dual onboard chargers

 

[MaintGrl]

Yea, if I was richer than a middle class electrical engineer I'd go out and buy this right now for CWD testing.

https://www.lowes.com/pd/Ford-Tri-fuel-Portable-Generator/5016769813

Any generator over 20kW is going to be big enough to have good mechanical inertia, physical winding accuracy, and a stable exciter capacity to provide clean enough power for any application. Also, I bet this thing can generate 19kW without breaking a sweat. To bad I'm also not rich enough to own an ER with dual onboard chargers

Wow, that is huge , , , 28kw/20kw . . I have a measly 4k Honda EM4000SW that I bought for my Earthquake preparedness/infrequent power outages. When I have had to use it, it has powered my home pretty easily, (Not turning everything on at the same time) Microwave, refrigerator, lights. It doesn't start my air Compressor though. It will run 10 hrs on 5 gallons of gas. (Good to know if gas is in short supply)

 

[PJnc284]

Well that's a few hundred cheaper than the Westinghouse and has Ford on it! Out of stock though. I'd be tempted but not sure my curiosity is worth that expense since I don't take a lot of long road trips and already have a giant generator (aka lightning).

 

[chl]

Everything being said here is confusing at best. The reality is that small/cheap/basic generators have been around for a long time and have varying quality of windings, physical build quality, varying exciter quality, and varying governor controls, there is no standard, just like there is no standard for the electronic design of the hardware or software in a Chinese inverter module.

I can tell you this: the Ford Lightning's on board charger which is made by Delta Electronics (Taiwan)doesn't care what kind of power you put into it. There is absolutely no need to to buy an inverter generator to charge the Lightning (and I'd venture to guess any other EV). There's also no need (IMO) to buy an inverter generator for any reason other than perhaps sensitive audio or radio equipment, for electric noise reasons.

There is another thread I saw today talking about "pure sine wave" with pro power. A guy showing that pro power produces a good looking sine wave. This is very equivalent to the inverter in most inverter generators and I can tell you that my 120V pro power plug in my bed does not like to start or run inductive loads. I have tried multiple things that it would not power where a good old electro-mechanical generator worked. The hype around inverter generators is just that,, Hype...

There are NO purpose built fossil fuel home backup generators to my knowledge that utilize inverters. Look at any of the offerings by the big names, Generac, Cummins, ONAN. That should tell you that Inverter generators are just marketing hype,,,, again, unless you are a HAM operator or Audiophile.

Lots of articles about the pros and cons on inverter generators - there's one (really 3 if you have 9.6kW) on the Lightning by the way for the Pro Power On Board (PPOB) AC output - a pretty "clean" AC output, so they tell me.

People with solar panel setups use inverter generators to convert the DC from the panels, perhaps stored in batteries as well, into AC for their homes and/or to send to the grid.

The EVSE you use is going to get your generator AC output and pass it through to the Lightning.

And, if you look it up, you will find that EVSE's may be sensitive to THD, and it could causes problems if it is too bad.

The on-board charger circuitry of the truck could also be adversely affected by too high a THD.

I have not heard about any THD damage to either an EVSE or an EV charging circuit, but would anyone really know about it if it happened? It would just look like a circuit failure and the cause might be unknown. Have to look that one up one of these days.

Anyway, the 'rule of thumb' is keep THD below 5% to 8% depending on the voltage (the higher the voltage the lower the THD should be) and unfortunately some generators, especially older ones, that are NOT inverter generators, may exceed that standard.

IEEE 519 is the standard that is used to build and evaluate electrical supply systems including generators - the text of it is very technical, so I will spare you the details. If interested in the details you can easily look it up on-line:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmonics_(electrical_power)

Even the WIKI entry may be hard to follow if you are not an engineer or familiar with advanced math, etc.

What can go wrong if the THD is too high? Lots of things.

Harmonics are multiples of the fundamental frequency of the power (voltage and current), commonly 60Hz (cycles per second) Harmonics are produced when generating electricity due to a number of factors, such as non-linear magnetic and electrical effects having to do with the way the generator is configured, the rotor, the stator, their windings etc. among other factors, including the load on it.

These harmonics occur at integral multiples of the 60Hz fundamental frequency, i.e., 120Hz, 240Hz etc. The harmonics produce currents and voltages at those frequencies in the output at a lesser level than the fundamental frequency, and the level of the harmonics decreases with frequency generally (if there is no resonance effect in the load). However they can still be significant enough to cause distortions in the fundamental frequency output.

These harmonic voltages and currents interact with the fundamental voltage and current, adding or subtracting from it depending on the phase of the sine waves.

The result is a distorted sine wave output, the amount of distortion depending on the level of the harmonics, and the distortion is called the THD.

The AC output voltage and current are ideally in the form of perfect sine waves that rise and fall (cycle) at the fundamental frequency of 60Hz. THD causes that sine wave to be less than perfect.

THD can cause computers to malfunction in a number of ways. It can cause errors in the internal clocks and timers, and digital to analog converters. If the AC input is distorted by the THD, the DC voltages that power the computer circuitry could be distorted as well, leading to...problems.

Our trucks are computers with wheels nowadays. The interaction between the truck and the EVSE is run by microprocessors and uses communication signals that could be adversely affected by THD if the THD is too high.

Anyway, there are many reason why keeping the THD as low as possible is a good idea.

Besides THD there is also the issue of surges in the fundamental frequency output voltage and current with some generators that are not inverter generators due to fluctuations in RPM for example.

While inverter generators' output can also surge, it is less likely due to the way they control the engine and the way they produce the sine wave output via the AC to DC to AC process.

Using surge protectors with any generator is a good idea, as well as with utility power which is subject to surging under some circumstances.

 

[chl]

Hopefully, your EVSE and the Lightnings have good filtering to protect from THD issues.

 

[GarrettBlake]

I had a Smarter Tools 7500 dual fuel generator (no inverter) that worked fine with powering the house with the exception of operating the pool cover motor. The Ford mobile charger would throw errors with it however. I sold that and got a Duramax inverter generator and it works just fine with the Ford mobile charger and the pool cover motor. Certainly worth the cost difference.

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