Using 120v to 240v transformer and two generators?

[Maquis]

and, an interesting note along with the 'modified' 240v power for the LEAF - the CHEVY BOLTS my sons just acquired the last 6 months, both came with the typical '120v emergency EVSE', but, and thanks to GM/Chevy for providing this, these EVSEs will ALSO work off of 240v power supply, meaning that the Hot and Neutral for 120v become Hot and HOT for the 240v service, and charge the car twice a 'fast',

You can do the same thing with the Ford Mobile Charger.

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[Ultimate Walrus]

You might look at this system: https://quick220.com/pages/electric-vehicle-charging

For my 2012 Nissan Leaf, I bought a GE Watt Station and had it wired with a 240v plug and outlet in my garage so it would be portable. If you did that with your Ford charger, you could unplug it and take it with you to a camp ground/RV site, eh?

As and aside, soon after the Nissan Leaf came out, an engineer developed and began selling a modification to the 120v portable EVSE that came with the Leaf so it could plug into a 240v outlet and provide a bit faster charging. The name of the company was "EVSE Upgrade."

If I recall correctly, the 120v portable EVSE that came with the Leaf would draw 12A when plugged into a 120v outlet. However, all the components were over-engineered so they could handle more current, up to a maximum of 20A.

The EVSE Upgrade modification allowed the portable Leaf unit to plug into a 240v outlet (you could specify which plug configuration you needed) and would draw 16A - besides the Leaf, would work with any J1772 compliant EV.

This is cool, looks like it might take some of the technical aspect out of the charging method hturnerfamily and Adventureboy mentioned, with using two opposite-phased outlets at a campground. Supposedly, that Quick 220 actually checks the phases before doing the conversion.

I have been successful in pulling two 120v 30A feeds to provide 240v 30A to my EVSE set to 24A. This works at my marina and will work the same in an RV park provided you find oppositely phased circuits. I built an adapter to bring two 120v 30A RV plugs to one 14/50R and installed connection lights in the box to confirm the opposite phase on the converter box before plugging in the EVSE. EVSE must be adjustable so that can be set safely below the 30A mark (like 24A). This gives me a 5Kw charging rate. You need to know what you are doing for this to work and not blow the breakers (or worse) and leave the campers in the dark. I use this setup every weekend.

This guy did a similar thing with a premade RV adapter: https://www.f150lightningforum.com/...outlets-for-240v-power-at-a-campground.11973/. This didn't work for me since I needed the L5-30P marine plugs but electrically it is the same.


The generator thing kind of defeats the purpose. It will be loud in a quiet RV park at night (even with the 2 Hondas or Yamahas) and slow since they will only be able to charge at say 16A at best.

OK, the 240v from two outlets thing sounds useful. Maybe I do need one of those "Quick 220" units so I don't trip breakers or catch anything on fire. I'm decently comfortable with electrical stuff, but my experience is primarily with 12v DC, where you couldn't get electrocuted if you tried.

Don't worry I wouldn't dream of running a generator during quiet hours at a campground. I hate even running it during the day and typically try to run it the minimum time possible to help our solar keep up when we're using a lot of juice. With the Lightning, I'm hoping it will be even less frequent, because we'll have a huge battery bank we can use.

With the generators, I'm just trying to limit the amount of freedom we'll have to give up transitioning to electric while the lagging infrastructure catches up. I know there'll be some sacrifices, but giving up the ability to go to off-grid campgrounds with a trailer would be a dealbreaker for us. At least if I have some way to slowly charge the Lightning in EV charging deserts, we may sacrifice time, but we don't sacrifice freedom, and we get all the benefits of an EV.

 

[Adventureboy]

This is cool, looks like it might take some of the technical aspect out of the charging method hturnerfamily and Adventureboy mentioned, with using two opposite-phased outlets at a campground. Supposedly, that Quick 220 actually checks the phases before doing the conversion.





OK, the 240v from two outlets thing sounds useful. Maybe I do need one of those "Quick 220" units so I don't trip breakers or catch anything on fire. I'm decently comfortable with electrical stuff, but my experience is primarily with 12v DC, where you couldn't get electrocuted if you tried.

Don't worry I wouldn't dream of running a generator during quiet hours at a campground. I hate even running it during the day and typically try to run it the minimum time possible to help our solar keep up when we're using a lot of juice. With the Lightning, I'm hoping it will be even less frequent, because we'll have a huge battery bank we can use.

With the generators, I'm just trying to limit the amount of freedom we'll have to give up transitioning to electric while the lagging infrastructure catches up. I know there'll be some sacrifices, but giving up the ability to go to off-grid campgrounds with a trailer would be a dealbreaker for us. At least if I have some way to slowly charge the Lightning in EV charging deserts, we may sacrifice time, but we don't sacrifice freedom, and we get all the benefits of an EV.

Many campsites have a centralized post for electricity. The post usually has 2 or 4 outlets to service the surrounding sites. They are usually opposite phases since this means fewer wires to the post. If there are 4 outlets, it will likely be two of each phase hence why I installed a light on my custom adapter that illuminates when I have 2 oppositely phased circuits giving 240v and stays dark if I hit two same phased outlets. The trick will be to pick the site with at least one more outlet on the post than the sites it is servicing so there is an extra one for you to use without unplugging your neighbors...

Carrying generators and the gas to run them would severely limit your utility. To be meaningful, your Honda or Yamaha generators would need to run for a full 24-hour day at peak output to go from 25-90% and it would probably take about 16-20 gallons of gas which you'll need to carry in addition to your generators.

 

[Ultimate Walrus]

Many campsites have a centralized post for electricity. The post usually has 2 or 4 outlets to service the surrounding sites. They are usually opposite phases since this means fewer wires to the post. If there are 4 outlets, it will likely be two of each phase hence why I installed a light on my custom adapter that illuminates when I have 2 oppositely phased circuits giving 240v and stays dark if I hit two same phased outlets. The trick will be to pick the site with at least one more outlet on the post than the sites it is servicing so there is an extra one for you to use without unplugging your neighbors...

Carrying generators and the gas to run them would severely limit your utility. To be meaningful, your Honda or Yamaha generators would need to run for a full 24-hour day at peak output to go from 25-90% and it would probably take about 16-20 gallons of gas which you'll need to carry in addition to your generators.

Good info about the campsites, thanks!

Regarding generator time, it’s even worse by my calculations. If I’m getting 2.8 kWh from twin generators after some loss in the transformer, it’d take 30 hours to add 85 kwh to the battery.

The situation I’m envisioning is, going to certain places that are in EV charging deserts, even some popular destinations like Moab. Once you get there you’re fine, but there’s a 105mi stretch of emptiness to the east and west. Towing a trailer, we could PROBABLY make it. If we do run out of fuel on a long stretch, I’d rather pull off and run the generators for a few hours, than call Ford Roadside Assistance and have them tow us the last 10 miles while we abandon the trailer.

This got me thinking though, about how the absolute best solution is probably just more capacity. Searching for spare EV battery brings up a ton of articles for Zipcharge Go which doesn’t even have a working website anymore, but I dug a bit and there already are already a few batteries designed to fill this niche, they’re just freakin expensive. With this battery you can link three together and get 10kwh of spare battery, though it’d cost $6,600 and weigh 300lbs total. 10kwh doesn’t sound like much but it could make the difference between us being able to get to Moab or not.

Maybe for our first adventure, I’ll try to get batteries like these and plan to use them as our emergency backup. I’ll keep the one 2000w generator we have and we’ll see if we even use it.

 

[Adventureboy]

Good info about the campsites, thanks!

Regarding generator time, it’s even worse by my calculations. If I’m getting 2.8 kWh from twin generators after some loss in the transformer, it’d take 30 hours to add 85 kwh to the battery.

The situation I’m envisioning is, going to certain places that are in EV charging deserts, even some popular destinations like Moab. Once you get there you’re fine, but there’s a 105mi stretch of emptiness to the east and west. Towing a trailer, we could PROBABLY make it. If we do run out of fuel on a long stretch, I’d rather pull off and run the generators for a few hours, than call Ford Roadside Assistance and have them tow us the last 10 miles while we abandon the trailer.

This got me thinking though, about how the absolute best solution is probably just more capacity. Searching for spare EV battery brings up a ton of articles for Zipcharge Go which doesn’t even have a working website anymore, but I dug a bit and there already are already a few batteries designed to fill this niche, they’re just freakin expensive. With this battery you can link three together and get 10kwh of spare battery, though it’d cost $6,600 and weigh 300lbs total. 10kwh doesn’t sound like much but it could make the difference between us being able to get to Moab or not.

Maybe for our first adventure, I’ll try to get batteries like these and plan to use them as our emergency backup. I’ll keep the one 2000w generator we have and we’ll see if we even use it.

I'd be more likely to spend a night at a campground to top up the Lightning with the adapters discussed here or perhaps spend a night in a hotel with an L2 EV station to top up on my way rather than spend that kind of cake to haul around extra batteries or a generator/gas in my cargo space. It takes a bit of planning but it gets easier once you've done it a few times. You'll learn pretty quickly what your truck/trailer combination can do. 100mi with a full-height camper trailer will take its toll. Elevation changes will have a significant impact up or down - a few minutes of planning with a topographical map might help keep you out of trouble (ie. if you have a 3000' climb over 60 miles, a full charge may not be enough depending how much your trailer weighs). On the other side, a 3000' drop over 60 miles and you want your truck to start on the lower part of the SOC so you can regenerate all the way down ;-)

 

[hturnerfamily]

I believe that some of the 'Y' adapter for 120v to 240v conversion have a led light to let you know it is workable... but, the real test is whether your 240v EVSE works - if it doesn't, likely they are not the opposite phases of power(coming from different 'sides' of the main panel's breaker inputs)...

to give a better 'explanation' of what 'different phases' means, you have to simply look up at the incoming overhead lines in your neighborhood, or the campground, to see TWO insulated/rubber coated lines, and one non-insulated 'neutral' line.
These THREE lines come into, typically, the top of your home's main panel: One insulated line is a HOT(we'll call that one BLACK), another HOT(called RED), and a non-insulated NEUTRAL line.

The two HOTs, which are 120v on their own, create 240v power, when combined within the main panel via a 240v DOUBLE-POLE breaker. You can tell what circuit is 240v within your main panel by looking for those 'larger' breakers that have two numbers(such as 50), with a single trip-handle that connects BOTH*. This makes a SINGLE output of 240v power, which is Twice that of regular 120v power.
These are typically for your electric OVEN/STOVE, Electric WATER HEATER, Electric DRYER, most larger Air Conditioners, etc., and any 240v 50amp OUTLETS at Campgrounds.

I enjoy electricity, and also realize, with experience, that all are not created equal. You may see several different 'varieties' of hookups, outlets, connections, campground pedestals, and home main panels - there are different manufacturers and different wiring schemes, and even local codes that require some to seem very 'updated', while others, maybe older, not so much.

*there are several different variety of breakers, so you may see some 240v breakers which only have a single trip-handle, and the breaker looks like a larger single breaker, but it is really two breakers combined within a single housing...

 

[chl]

You can do the same thing with the Ford Mobile Charger.

Yes, but the Mobile charger requires a 50A circuit and plug. People have tried using adapters to plug it into a 30A circuit and it was a no-go - popped the breakers when trying to charge a Lightning. Seems it draws 32A when charging the Lightning.

Maybe it could work if the vehicle has the capability of reducing the draw to below 30A from the Mobile Charger - not sure that is possible though.

With the Ford wall EVSE on the other hand the current draw can be adjusted for a 30A circuit (to 24A). Other portable EVSE's are adjustable (so I have read in posts anyway) as well.

The Leaf EVSE upgrade to the portable EVSE only drew a max of 16A on a 240V circuit so it was not an issue.

 

[Maquis]

Yes, but the Mobile charger requires a 50A circuit and plug. People have tried using adapters to plug it into a 30A circuit and it was a no-go - popped the breakers when trying to charge a Lightning. Seems it draws 32A when charging the Lightning.

Maybe it could work if the vehicle has the capability of reducing the draw to below 30A from the Mobile Charger - not sure that is possible though.

With the Ford wall EVSE on the other hand the current draw can be adjusted for a 30A circuit (to 24A). Other portable EVSE's are adjustable (so I have read in posts anyway) as well.

The Leaf EVSE upgrade to the portable EVSE only drew a max of 16A on a 240V circuit so it was not an issue.

We’re talking about applying 240V to the NEMA 5-15 dongle. The result is 12A at 240V.

 

[chl]

This is cool, looks like it might take some of the technical aspect out of the charging method hturnerfamily and Adventureboy mentioned, with using two opposite-phased outlets at a campground. Supposedly, that Quick 220 actually checks the phases before doing the conversion.





OK, the 240v from two outlets thing sounds useful. Maybe I do need one of those "Quick 220" units so I don't trip breakers or catch anything on fire. I'm decently comfortable with electrical stuff, but my experience is primarily with 12v DC, where you couldn't get electrocuted if you tried.

Don't worry I wouldn't dream of running a generator during quiet hours at a campground. I hate even running it during the day and typically try to run it the minimum time possible to help our solar keep up when we're using a lot of juice. With the Lightning, I'm hoping it will be even less frequent, because we'll have a huge battery bank we can use.

With the generators, I'm just trying to limit the amount of freedom we'll have to give up transitioning to electric while the lagging infrastructure catches up. I know there'll be some sacrifices, but giving up the ability to go to off-grid campgrounds with a trailer would be a dealbreaker for us. At least if I have some way to slowly charge the Lightning in EV charging deserts, we may sacrifice time, but we don't sacrifice freedom, and we get all the benefits of an EV.

Yes it seems other Lightning owners (from other threads I've read) have had to buy an adjustable or lower amperage drawing potable EVSE to charge the Lightning at camp sites where the limit seems to be 240V/30A. Trying to use the Ford Mobile with an adapter popped breakers.

 

[chl]

We’re talking about applying 240V to the NEMA 5-15 dongle. The result is 12A at 240V.

Well, the mobile charger will draw 32A when charging a Lightning and pop the breakers on the two 120V circuits, just like trying to use it with a 240V/30A circuit, won't it?

Sorry I didn't clarify that point.

 

[chl]

Well, the mobile charger will draw 32A when charging a Lightning and pop the breakers on the two 120V circuits, just like trying to use it with a 240V/30A circuit, won't it?

Sorry I didn't clarify that point.

I should add a caveat: if you have two 120v/20A circuits on opposite legs, then you could draw the 32A required by the Ford Mobil Charger since the breakers will pop at 40A.

 

[Maquis]

Well, the mobile charger will draw 32A when charging a Lightning and pop the breakers on the two 120V circuits, just like trying to use it with a 240V/30A circuit, won't it?

Sorry I didn't clarify that point.

No….the 5-15 dongle tells the EVSE to max out at 12A. There are threads where this has all been discussed.

 

[hturnerfamily]

these electrical discussion can sometimes go sideways due to overlapping questions/answers and typically due to the nature of the 'lesser known' 240v power and how it 'works', compared to our more normal everyday 120v outlets...

Regardless of ANY of these adapters or plugs or EVSEs, if you ask too much from a circuit BREAKER, it is designed to TRIP, to protect the wiring between the two. It is NOT necessarily a sign that something is 'wrong', or that someone's house is suddently going to 'burn down' just because - the breaker is doing it's job, it's ONLY job - to trip when the amperage is greater than it is designed for.

So, when you look at these questions about Amps and Breakers and 240v vs 120v, and adapters, what you are really doing is simply 'adapting' to the situation. Adapters are designed to give you an option to 'connect' two otherwise 'different' male or female outlets. They do what they are designed to do, and because differing Voltage and Amperage outlets have differing PRONG Numbers and Prong Locations and Prong Shapes, it's almost impossible to do something 'wrong', when using them.

When it comes to the real question of whether your truck can HANDLE the amount of power you are requesting thru an adapter, and the bed's twistlock 30amp Outlet, you may never really know until you try it. Trying it will not do any harm. The truck's internal breaker will TRIP if too much power is requested, then you will know. No harm. Just unplug and reset the breaker.

These forums are not going to educate everyone in everything electrical, but with out truck's being basically a very large ELECTRICAL GENERATOR, it does seem that we all need as much info as we can get. Some will stick with the basics, and some of us will venture out much farther.

 

[DanielB]

It seems like the Lightning will only charge at 11 Amps on a Level 1 (120V) charging source, regardless of what the the charger advertises for capability. It sounds like some users have had success running 240V to the 5-15 plug/head to get ~3KW charging (240V X 11A)?. The plug/head dictates how many Amps it can provide, but as of today the truck itself will limit Level 1 / 120V charging to 11 Amps regardless of if the charger can supply more at 120V.

I have tested a budget mobile charger that can do 16, 26, and 32 Amps at either 120V or 240V. I have tested that the charger will work properly on a 50 Amp 240V feed to deliver the advertised 16A, 26A, or 32A charge based on it's current setting. At 120V it will charge at 11 Amps, period, regardless of the Amp setting.

If I take a Yamaha EF4500iSE (32 Amp "4KW" 120V) generator and run it through a step-up/step-down "autotransformer" to get ~16 Amps of 240V AC I am able to charge at about 3600 watts / 15.5 Amps with that charger set to 16 Amps.

This should scale up or down as long as you have a properly-sized 120v source, transformer, and Level 2 charger. The charger I bought was advertised to do lower 8A 10A 13A 16A 32A, but it does not, it only allows you to select 16A, 26A, or 32A on either 120V or 240V AC. I was hoping to be able to dial it back and test it with a suitcase ~2200 watt Honda EU2200i style generator but I fear I'll have to use a different charger for that testing.

In theory you could take two suitcase 120V generators, run them parallel to get a 30 Amp 120V circuit, feed that through a 120 -> 240V transformer to a 16 Amp Level 2 Charger and charge at the same 3600 Watts I did. Please don't let the anti-EV crowd see you doing it.

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