Lightning vs. EREV Lightning

[Athrun88]

So then why not cut a few modules out from the platform and use that space for more ICE components, gas tank, etc..?

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[djwildstar]

I have not seen specs - is the gas engine large enough to be able to functionally use it as a gas only vehicle? In other words, on a long drive could you only fuel on gas?

I think that it is probably that the EREV Lightning will be a close copy of the much-delayed RamCharger EREV. IIRC, the Ram truck will have a Pentastar 3.6L V6 turning a 130kW generator, about 70kWh usable battery storage for ~145mi electric range, and ~545mi gas range. Stellantis has been struggling to get this vehicle to market, originally promised for 2024 and now delayed until 2026 (hopefully). This suggests that getting the EREV system working properly may be harder than Ford thinks.

Presumably the Ford version will use their Cyclone 3.3L V6 and a similar-sized generator, with overall similar range breakdown (50-75kWh usable battery for 100-150 miles of electric range, and 550-600 miles of gas range). The trucks software will almost certainly start the range extender based on some combination of driving mode, driving history, and battery state of charge. It would charge up the battery until the software is happy with the state of charge, and shuts the generator down again. Some use cases (towing uphill) might require the generator to run more-or-less continuously.

I suspect that the system will be engineered so that you never "run out of charge" unless the truck is out of gas. Worst case, the system may need to limit power or speed to ensure that the generator can charge the battery as fast as it is being depleted. While you are expected to use the vehicle as an EV, charging at home every night when not on a road trip, if the battery charge management is engineered like most plug-in hybrids are, it should be functional as a gas-only vehicle.

 

[K6CCC]

It is a generator to charge the battery. It powers nothing.

All EREVs work the same way.

There is only one drivetrain, the EV drivetrain, that drives the wheels.

Both of you missed my point. I know that the gas engine will only drive a generator to charge the battery / augment power to the drive motors. My point is will the engine driven generator be large enough that it it can completely and continuously supply enough power to drive the vehicle? In other words, can you make a long drive that ONLY uses the gas engine as a source of energy and not require electric charging, or will (as the name implies), will the engine driven generator only be able to extend the range of the battery by some percentage? Since I see the primary use case to be long distance towing, will you be able to drive a while, stop for gas, drive some more, stop for gas, drive some more, stop for gas, etc, and have the have engine keep the battery charged in that hard duty situation?

 

[chl]

Both of you missed my point. I know that the gas engine will only drive a generator to charge the battery / augment power to the drive motors. My point is will the engine driven generator be large enough that it it can completely and continuously supply enough power to drive the vehicle? In other words, can you make a long drive that ONLY uses the gas engine as a source of energy and not require electric charging, or will (as the name implies), will the engine driven generator only be able to extend the range of the battery by some percentage? Since I see the primary use case to be long distance towing, will you be able to drive a while, stop for gas, drive some more, stop for gas, drive some more, stop for gas, etc, and have the have engine keep the battery charged in that hard duty situation?

Generally in this type of EREV, the gas generator charges the battery, the battery powers the rest of the vehicle.

So the generator is a range extender, not a alternative to the electric motors etc.

In a way, like a train locomotive - they use a diesel generator to power the electric motors, and newer ones also have batteries for energy storage, so I've read.

 

[Athrun88]

Both of you missed my point. I know that the gas engine will only drive a generator to charge the battery / augment power to the drive motors. My point is will the engine driven generator be large enough that it it can completely and continuously supply enough power to drive the vehicle? In other words, can you make a long drive that ONLY uses the gas engine as a source of energy and not require electric charging, or will (as the name implies), will the engine driven generator only be able to extend the range of the battery by some percentage? Since I see the primary use case to be long distance towing, will you be able to drive a while, stop for gas, drive some more, stop for gas, drive some more, stop for gas, etc, and have the have engine keep the battery charged in that hard duty situation?

Ah, I understand now.

The gas engine will only kick in when needed. If the gas engine needs to be on the whole trip to supply electrons to the HVB, then it's what it will do. From my understanding of other EREVs though, the ICE is large enough to charge the battery as you drive with possibly a net gain in charge during the trip. So, if you embarked on a 700mi trip, the HVB could take you, say, 200mi, then the gas engine would kick in to charge up the HVB to a set percentage as you drive, say another 300mi. Then it would shut off and it would be in EV mode only for another 200mi. I wouldn't expect a large gas tank, but enough to get you to whatever the company is promising you in range.

So yes, in your example, that would be possible. Just keep stopping for gas like you would in a normal ICE and the generator will keep your HVB topped up to drive the EV drivetrain.

 

[Bobby Two Two]

Too much maintenance on an ICE. I freed up about 6' of shelf space in my shed getting rid of all of the stuff I needed to keep my Tundra running (I live in a rural area and do most of the maintenance myself). In BC our public electric company has installed a large network of fast chargers, some in surprisingly out of the way places. I don't find even my standard range XLT much of a burden to travel. If only they would install them drive through so we could charge with a trailer like a gas pump.

 

[WXman]

One issue with EREV I see is that the added weight will likely reduce payload capacity. So, that may affect WHAT you can tow.

The obvious advantage is that you can tow what the truck will tow a much much greater distance.

I guess I’m going to be forced now to decide at the end of my lease whether it’s worth all the complexity, or do I just go back to an ICE F-250 and call it a day.

 

[sotek2345]

One issue with EREV I see is that the added weight will likely reduce payload capacity. So, that may affect WHAT you can tow.

The obvious advantage is that you can tow what the truck will tow a much much greater distance.

I guess I’m going to be forced now to decide at the end of my lease whether it’s worth all the complexity, or do I just go back to an ICE F-250 and call it a day.

Smaller battery should offset the added weight of the ICE components, so I wouldn't worry too much on that.

 

[K6CCC]

I guess I’m going to be forced now to decide at the end of my lease whether it’s worth all the complexity, or do I just go back to an ICE F-250 and call it a day.

By then, there may be other viable options too to stay electric. I sure don't want to go back to a gasser.

 

[I <3 My Lightning]

I speculate Ford trying to keep in house parts the same to save money will be using the same exact capacity battery designed for their new midsized ev platform. Hence the drop in acceleration performance due to lower voltage pack.

And of course the battery will DC charge... Possibly not available for the consumer but definitely off the generator system... LOL

BMW Europe is doing some cool home DC charging options along with V2L systems.

 

[tubby]

Ahh, I get it now—Ford is pivoting the next-generation F-150 Lightning to an Extended-Range Electric Vehicle (EREV) because that setup actually fits the real-world needs of most current Lightning owners (and probably most truck buyers in general). We bought a truck that we only truly use as a truck about 10% of the time—for occasional hauling, towing, or those weekend projects—while the other 90% is just daily driving. With the EREV’s onboard generator providing 700+ miles of range and no range anxiety on those rare heavy-use days, owners can finally get full, unrestricted truck capability exactly when they need it, without compromising the efficient, silent electric experience for everyday use. It’s the practical sweet spot so many of us have been waiting for, except now we are expected to get used to hauling a generator around with gas for it. To be continued...

 

[ZeusDriver]

The big shock will be that when towing or long road trips (where almost all of the miles are gas miles), the EREV will need more gas than a similarly-sized PowerBoost truck.

My Volt was electric-only about 300 days per year, and ran on gas for 60 days. With an EREV Lightning, I could probably reduce the gas days to 20 (Given the likely 100+ mile electric range). With the Volt, I didn't worry about the fact that is was less efficient than a Prius when running on gas, because doing so was a rare event.

 

[ZeusDriver]

I would prefer a Ranger PHEV to the new Lightning, because it is a better size for my needs, and because it will be a little bit less of a science fair experiment, given that it has already been released in places other than the US. However, its 20-some miles electric range is too low. (50 would be fine.) The EREV will be too big and too expensive, so I will probably just hang on to my Lightning for 10 years. In 5 years, Ford could have sold me a 400-mile-range Lightning... but no.

Chances are very good that they have lost me as a customer. OTOH, maybe the skateboard will fit my needs.

 

[djwildstar]

Ford bowed to social media viewpoints that what trucks are used for is only long distance towing. The Lightning already fits the every day use of most truck owners.

More than the social media viewpoints, I think that a lot of truck buyers purchase their vehicles for what they hope to do (eventually), and wish they could do (if only ...). So for example, lots of people purchase Raptors but never take them off-pavement (it is estimated that only about 20% of off-road rigs are even driven off-road). The majority of drivers like the idea of being able to go off-road, even though they never actually do it.

The BEV Lightning lacks some of these key wish-list features: you can't readily tow a max-size camper trailer 600 miles to a wilderness campsite; you can't do a coast-to-coast cannonball run; you can't take a weekend roadtrip on a whim and without a plan. The fact that most people don't do these things doesn't really matter -- people are buying the dream ("well, I could if I wanted to"), not the reality of actually doing it.

So overall, I do feel that the EREV Lightning is an important tool in Ford's sales arsenal. However, I also feel that it shouldn't come at the expense of the BEV Lightning.

 

[ZeusDriver]

Chances are very good that they have lost me as a customer. OTOH, maybe the skateboard will fit my needs.

HA HA HA. In fact, I just leased a new Lightning XLT. The lease deal was too good to pass up. And I really like the blue color!

I'll keep it for three years, and then see how all this shakes out. My hope is that the skateboard truck will have close to 400 mile range and be capable of towing 4000 lb. For the very small amount of long distance towing I do, 150 mile range while towing would be fine.

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