My first test towing a 31' camper with Extended Range Lightning Lariat

[rolker]

Yeah, now that I tried a Wallbox as well, I'm more convinced the issue is not with the OpenEVSE but with the use of EVSEs with GFCI breakers in general.

Seems like to remain within code, I'll have to hardwire the EVSE so I can switch to a non-GFCI breaker.

I use an OpenEVSE myself on both a Mach-E and my Lightning and no issues on a non-GFCI circuit on up to 48A on a 60A line.

There's an on-board GFCI so it's not needed on the circuit, and there have been a bunch of posts on the Mach-E sites suggesting that back-to-back GFCI is very problematic for reliability. (I am not an electrician, so just passing along what I have read).

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[rolker]

So I started with the gain set to 6.0 as recommended in the manual and when I did a low speed test, the trailer brake seemed to be about half as agressive as how I used to run it on my old F150, so decided to start there.

On the Highway, I used cruise control to maintain 65 on the way out and 60 on the way in. Traffic was light and flowing a bit quicker so the speed was constant.

What was your brake controller set on and did you do a constant 65? You can definitely get better than that if you are willing to drive it differently. A campershell with towing your RV will definitely help efficiency as well.

 

[rolker]

Yup, that's what I'm discovering.

So, going forward, as code requirements for GFCI breakers to be used with NEMA 14-50 outlets in garages and outdoors get adopted, how will this issue be dealth with? Will EVSEs meant to be plugged in need to be redisgned?

Is there another solution to use an EVSE that can be plugged in, have it be reliable, and remain within code or is this a pick two out of three situation?

I would suspect that any GFCI Breaker is going to present problems for your EVSE charger.

 

[rolker]

Maybe I'll see you around town when I am heading to/from the Drag Strip later this summer/fall!!

I did a truck only run from home to the track last week, averaged 2.2 to 2.4 miles/KW, I hope my trailer and race gear only cuts the rate to 1 to 1.2 miles/KW

I had noticed your avatar and figured you probably visited my neck of the woods. I used to roadrace in Loudon and some of my buddies would go to the drag strip to practice their launches.
Let me know when you'll be there again, I might go check out the action.

 

[FlasherZ]

Two 30A outlets is indeed odd. I'm not an electrician, but maybe they didn't run large enough wiring to support 50A so they just split the phases between two 30A outlets?

There are probably a few different reasons. 40 years ago or so, our local state park had only one pedestal for every 2 sites, each site getting a TT-30 and a standard 5-15 @ 120V. As trailers' and motorhomes' electrical needs grew, they moved some and put in some new ones so that each site had dedicated pedestals (in the late 90's I think).

 

[FlasherZ]

I've read of people using the 14-50 240v to charge their Lightning & use the 30 amp 120v for the trailer. I think we run the danger of overloading the wiring at the pedestal doing so. I think the safest way would be use the 14-50 240v to the Lightning & run your trailer from the Lightnings Pro Power connection.

This depends on how the pedestal is wired. If the pedestal is supplied by 2 opposing legs, then you won't end up with overloading of the neutral because the neutral only carries the imbalance between leg A and leg B. That's how "multi wire branch circuits" work.

The neutral only gets overloaded if it's wired differently (e.g., two conductors off the same phase plus a neutral). That's rare, but there are some out there - these are also the pedestals that also can provide 120V but not 240V.

With that said, you do make an important point - how big is the feeder to a pedestal? Most of the newer campgrounds will be just fine, as they're fed with up to 100A at 240V.

 

[FlasherZ]

Sorry, was plowing through the thread and addressing them as they come up. The incompatibility of two ground-fault devices in line is unfortunately a reality. It's the testing function (whether automatic or manual) that typically causes this problem.

 

[ExCivilian]

Yup, that's what I'm discovering.

So, going forward, as code requirements for GFCI breakers to be used with NEMA 14-50 outlets in garages and outdoors get adopted, how will this issue be dealth with? Will EVSEs meant to be plugged in need to be redisgned?

Is there another solution to use an EVSE that can be plugged in, have it be reliable, and remain within code or is this a pick two out of three situation?

I don’t know if it’s still code, or if it ever was, but I seem to remember we (in the openEVSE community) would wire the 14-50 without neutral and label it as “EVSE ONLY” signaling it was a 14-50 in form factor only.

 

[hturnerfamily]

interesting question about the 'new' requirement of a GFCI breaker for NEMA 14-50 outlets in garages, etc., as most ANY Rv Park or Campground, with OUTDOOR outlets subject to the weather and folks plugging in and unplugging daily, have NO SUCH REQUIREMENTS.

Generally a GFCI is not required for dedicated use circuit/outlet, on it's own breaker, such as electric dryers, oven/stoves, and should probably just as well apply to EVSE and RV/Camper outlets, as well, whether indoors or out.

 

[FlasherZ]

I don’t know if it’s still code, or if it ever was, but I seem to remember we (in the openEVSE community) would wire the 14-50 without neutral and label it as “EVSE ONLY” signaling it was a 14-50 in form factor only.

Code really doesn't address that, as it anticipates you start with the requirements for the load you're connecting and then code helps you get power properly to it. There's nothing in the NEC that says you MUST run a neutral to a 14-50 receptacle (although you'll frequently find people coming back to the 110.3(B) catch-all that says equipment shall be "installed and used in accordance with any instructions included in the listing or labeling"). Read through the instructions of your average 50-amp receptacle and you'll find nothing that commands you to have a neutral on a 14-50 receptacle, even though we all know it's a damn good idea and can destroy a lot of appliances if you don't!

The right thing to do is to pull the neutral and connect it anyways, just in case it gets used for something else. But as you can imagine, I see a lot of "experts" who also think that duct-taping a garden hose to the end of a gas pump is perfectly acceptable, and in that case I just warn them to label it with very big warnings: "WARNING - NO NEUTRAL - FOR EV CHARGING USE ONLY". Same thing goes for homemade "dog bone" adapters.

 

[FlasherZ]

interesting question about the 'new' requirement of a GFCI breaker for NEMA 14-50 outlets in garages, etc., as most ANY Rv Park or Campground, with OUTDOOR outlets subject to the weather and folks plugging in and unplugging daily, have NO SUCH REQUIREMENTS.

Generally a GFCI is not required for dedicated use circuit/outlet, on it's own breaker, such as electric dryers, oven/stoves, and should probably just as well apply to EVSE and RV/Camper outlets, as well, whether indoors or out.

For years, the CMP's (driven by the manufacturers of gear) have been pushing for EVERY circuit everywhere to get GFCI/AFCI protection. Some argue it's safety, some that it's because basic breakers became too cheap and the manufacturers need more money, others because CMP members have nothing better to do.

This code change is effective with NEC 2020 - 2017 still had all the old requirements (and most state / local governments haven't adopted 2020 yet).

Starting with NEC 2020 (210.8), all receptacles 50A and less in dwelling units must be protected by GFCI if they are in bathrooms, kitchens, rooftops, outdoors, sinks, damp/wet locations, locker rooms w/ showers, garages/accessory buildings/service bays, crawl spaces below grade, unfinished basements, laundry areas, and within 6 feet of shower stalls/bathtubs. In non-dwelling units, GFCI is required only in bathrooms and kitchens with sinks and permanent provisions for food prep/cooking. All receptacles intended for EV charging must also be GFCI-protected (625.54).

Campgrounds still retain their original rules (551.71(F)), in which only 15 & 20A receptacles need GFCI.

 

[ExCivilian]

Similar issues (regarding necessity of GFCI and equipment not working correctly on a GFCI) with pool equipment.

To make matters worse, the main reason I try to understand this stuff that's otherwise way outside my wheelhouse is due to the fact "professionals" seemingly have different answers and opinions depending on the time of day.

 

[FlasherZ]

To make matters worse, the main reason I try to understand this stuff that's otherwise way outside my wheelhouse is due to the fact "professionals" seemingly have different answers and opinions depending on the time of day.

It is good to understand it, although sometimes it's a bit difficult to piece all the stuff together from the relevant sections.

Just like anything else, there are differing levels of knowledge and understanding among "professionals". Commercial and industrial electricians are a far different group than residential electricians, and then there are the "handymen". Then we deal with inspectors who like to make stuff up too, occasionally, just because they saw something somewhere and think it's a good idea to enforce. So it's natural to get a bunch of varied opinions, and I like to simply drag it back to the code, and when I hear "it's code to <xyz>", I ask for the citation so I know where they're coming from.

Alright, back to the topic - EVSE gear and GFCI... Just like when GFCI's started becoming requirements in bathrooms and kitchens, we're going to have to go around in circles to "fix" equipment that never had to worry about tripping GFCI's before.

 

[cvalue13]

I sure appreciate everyone sharing their knowledge around here.

These are all topics I do not understand, and won’t anytime soon - but hope to keep following and pick something up.

The conversations are far enough above my head that I hoped someone might clarify for me: am I understanding correctly that, if powered by the Lightning, GFCI’s will have a problem; or is it the other way around, that if plugged into a GFCI theLightning will have a problem?

Appreciate the hand-holding in advance

 

[rolker]

In this case, we're talking about charging the Lightning from a GFCI protected outlet.

I think I did see potential issues mentioned in other threads with using the Lighting to power your house without using the home integration kit. Something regarding the neutral and bonding, but that's beyond my understanding as well!

I sure appreciate everyone sharing their knowledge around here.

These are all topics I do not understand, and won’t anytime soon - but hope to keep following and pick something up.

The conversations are far enough above my head that I hoped someone might clarify for me: am I understanding correctly that, if powered by the Lightning, GFCI’s will have a problem; or is it the other way around, that if plugged into a GFCI theLightning will have a problem?

Appreciate the hand-holding in advance

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