Something about this really stinks...

[ZeusDriver]

It's owned and operated by the Finnish government as a non-profit.

Of course. I was being facetious. VTT is well-known in much of the world by battery engineers, most automotive engineers, etc. In the US, the Sloan Automotive Lab at MIT comes to mind as being similar, although it has been more focused on combustion... (something we hope does not happen often with batteries).

Keep in mind that Finland is a very high tech country. I'm not saying the battery tech has to be real for that reason, but when it comes to trust, I'd say the Finns in general are high up on my list. They're a stoic, no nonsense kind of people.

I agree completely. I think a certain amount of the stoicism comes from the frigid Baltic Sea on one side, Russia on the other, and a very cold northern half.

When I was working there, I went sailing with some people I got to know at Finnair. We went out into the bay from a yacht club, and I was immediately struck by how much less pretentious the club and its people were as compared with yacht clubs in the US. (The Finn class, although designed in Sweden, was designed to Finnish standards, and was the longest running Olympic class in history. If you want to impress any sailor, anywhere in the world, tell them that you are a Finn sailor.)

At the work site, I got a kick out of their jokes about (for example) "doing things Russian style" (in other words, badly engineered and crudely executed).

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[DavidS]

so it looks like a pouch cell. With 4.15V and 26Ah of capacity.

to reach the 5kW solid state pack that was fairly small and on display, youd need roughly 60 of these cells.

seems like you have an “space occupancy” issue, guys.

kW and kWh are two different things. If it can charge at 11C it can probably discharge at 11C or better. 5kW at 11C is around 4 cells if my math is right.
I’m with everyone else that has a high level of skepticism. It is possible for a small company to occasionally make breakthroughs. It also possible that they will need 10 years to get the product to market for large EV batteries or for this to be vaporware. Also, good time to watch Chain Reaction with Keanu Reeves. If you actually invented something like this, your two options are go big and public asap or sell to someone with big money to bury it.

 

[ZeusDriver]

So earth shattering that it makes you think of the mysterious deaths and disappearances associated with the 50 mpg carburator and the water powered car.

There seem to be many very literal-minded and gullible people contributing to this thread, so it is worth pointing out, explicitly, that you are being sarcastic. Stanley Meyers' "water powered" car, the many HHO offerings, Dennis Lee's several perpetual motion frauds, etc, etc, all played off the stunning ignorance of physics displayed by far too many people.

There is a post above that starts " If industry wanted us to have cutting edge tech. Like really, we would. Scams and swindlers are far more common than honest folks these days, if you watch the news really any news for what it is it’s there." While it may appear that there are people with tremendous power who are scam artists, (given the convicted felons and conspiracy theorists who run some countries) the notion that scam artists are more common than honest folks is delusional. It's gibberish.

Presumably it is "industry" that is not letting us have the "cutting edge" tech, like HHO.... ? Your post may be feeding his fantasies.

For your own post to be anything other than noise, your listing of the things you find "earth shattering" (and therefore unbelievable) would be helpful. Otherwise, the post just comes across as belligerence without any facts whatsoever.

There is nothing about the specs, as applied to a lab cell, that is "earth-shattering", with the possible exception of the "clay like construction." All the rest has been demonstrated by others in labs. The significant challenge is "just" making these in production quantities... and we will know if they can do that in a little over a month. In the mean time, there will presumably be maybe 6-8? videos.

 

[ZeusDriver]

to reach the 5kW solid state pack that was fairly small and on display, youd need roughly 60 of these cells.

This is nonsensical. Does not parse.

Charging at 5kW? Discharging at 5kW? That's less 10 hp, which a pretty small pack can feed.

 

[Shmoe]

kW and kWh are two different things. If it can charge at 11C it can probably discharge at 11C or better. 5kW at 11C is around 4 cells if my math is right.
I’m with everyone else that has a high level of skepticism. It is possible for a small company to occasionally make breakthroughs. It also possible that they will need 10 years to get the product to market for large EV batteries or for this to be vaporware. Also, good time to watch Chain Reaction with Keanu Reeves. If you actually invented something like this, your two options are go big and public asap or sell to someone with big money to bury it.

Yup.. I typoed that and left out the h. 5kWh pack is what they said that little module sitting on the stand was at their empty displays.

 

[Shmoe]

For reference.. this is the module that 60 of those pouch cells picture would need to fit in, claiming 5kWh capacity.

 

[ZeusDriver]

Motors of 90%, 91%, 92%, 93% , 94% and 95% efficiency are not hard to find and there is nothing about their specs (which I believe are available to anyone) that says to me "improbable".

I realized this is ambiguous. I was intending to say: 1. There is nothing unusual about motors of 90% - 95% efficiency (or even 97% in larger motors). Those numbers are not hard to find throughout industry. 2. There is nothing outside that range (on the high side**) in the Donut motor specs. Nothing makes me grab my pearls and say "Good God Man!!" that's hard to believe!"

In other words their efficiency numbers are iabout what a person familiar with motors would expect. Wheel motors are often not stunningly wonderful in performance specs, because the perfect motor for eg, a 120 hp motorcycle is compromised by being 17 inches around* . More simply stated, most motors look very similar in proportions like length vs diameter, because they have evolved over the last 100 plus years.

Again, I believe the specs are publicly available. If your interested in an application just ask for the data sheets. If you have been around motors you will not be shocked. For some applications, you may be very well impressed.

*But in application, there is no reduction gearing at all, so there are none of those associated losses. Thus the vehicle's propulsive efficiency can be more higher than with most other motors. This efficiency improvement applies to both driving and regen braking.

** On the low side, every motor is 0% efficient when in the locked-rotor mode.

 

[Shmoe]

This is nonsensical. Does not parse.

Charging at 5kW? Discharging at 5kW? That's less 10 hp, which a pretty small pack can feed.

Obviously if we're talking about the number of cells necessary we're talking about capacity and size. Simple explanation -- I left out the h. It was a typo.

As usual here, the math doesn't math.

 

[ZeusDriver]

For reference.. this is the module that 60 of those pouch cells picture would need to fit in, claiming 5kWh capacity.

If you are going to make outrageously extraordinary claims, then you need to, at very least, show your math. What figure are you using for volumetric energy density and what dimensions are you using for the pack. Without your showing the math, It is impossible to discern WTF you re trying to say here.

 

[ZeusDriver]

Obviously if we're talking about the number of cells necessary we're talking about capacity and size. Simple explanation -- I left out the h. It was a typo.

As usual here, the math doesn't math.

Show the fricking math. Show their claim for volumetric energy density and show that the pack is too small. (Do you think that the pack is the size of its representation oon your computer screen?? It's not. )

I have very high tolerance for people who do not understand math or specifications, or electricity, but low tolerance for those failings combined with bullying and belligerence. Here is your opportunity: Prove that Donut labs is a scam via your math. You can be a hero. It will only take a few seconds.

 

[Shmoe]

If you are going to make outrageously extraordinary claims, then you need to, at very least, show your math. What figure are you using for volumetric energy density and what dimensions are you using for the pack. Without your showing the math, It is impossible to discern WTF you re trying to say here.

If only you treated your boy Marky Marko with the same standards..

4.17v, that pouch cell they showed had a capacity of 26Ah.

57 of those things are _NOT_ fitting in that module.

 

[Mal106]

There seem to be many very literal-minded and gullible people contributing to this thread, so it is worth pointing out, explicitly, that you are being sarcastic.

Good grief. I think you overestimate the gullibility of those contributing here. I think the moon landing deniers and flat earthers are elsewhere. On the other hand, there have been many advances in human history that have proven to be a leap forward. There is a long road from charging tests, one of which incidentally was terminated due to unsafe battery temperature, to powering an EV. As I said, I'm not investing but I'm interested and will keep an open mind.

 

[ZeusDriver]

If only you treated your boy Marky Marko with the same standards..

4.17v, that pouch cell they showed had a capacity of 26Ah.

57 of those things are _NOT_ fitting in that module.

They are neither claiming nor demonstrating 4.17 volts as a nominal voltage. Read the report. Find the right figure.

You are clueless or lying re the size of the module; you are clueless or lying re the volumetric energy density. Show the math or I can only conclude that you a belligerent prick because it is fun for you. It's not fun for me. It's the sort of cyberbullying that erodes the utility of the internet and of this forum.

Why are you mocking the guy's name? Why are you mocking my connection to him (we have never met nor talked nor emailed). I just want to do a fun project with their motor and batteries.
Here is a hint: the volumetric energy density for all these SS efforts (the 5-10 leaders) is a little less than 1000 Wh/L. You could go with 900. Now: Show the math. See if you can figure out how big the module must be. Show us how brilliant you are. The metric system makes it really really easy -- 3rd grader stuff. I'll be really impressed if you get this right. How many one liter bottles of coke are we talking?

Without the math, you are simple fabricating lies. Why? Who pays you?

Re:
If only you treated your boy Marky Marko with the same standards..
In what way is he a prick? I have seen no evidence that he is a prick. Provide some.

 

[ZeusDriver]

This is the weirdest thread I've seen in quite a while. I'm finding it pretty repulsive.

Given that it does not appear that Shmoe is willing to do even the simplest math, here is a project for anyone who actually cares, and is not here just to be a prick.

Let's round the likely volumetric energy density to 1000 Wh/L. (research that -- you will find it typical for SS.)
Without needing any sort of calculator, anyone who can read this is also probably able to see that a 5000Wh battery would have to be 5 liters (in other words 5000 cc.)

Let's say that the pack is about the size of piece of paper (8 1/2 x 11 in the US) in plan view, and a little over 3 inches thick: say roughly 22 cm x 28 cm x 8.5 cm. That's 5236 cc. You can do that by hand on a napkin in 30 seconds, and even faster if you use a calculator. That appears very clearly in the ball park for the 5kWh pack mockup that Donut showed at CES.

If I were going to guess at the actual pack size shown, I would have said that is is a little larger than a sheet of paper in plan. But who cares? it is obviously in the ball park There is nothing remotely extraordinary or revolutionary or wild about 1000 Wh/L. It is as exciting as oatmeal.

What next ? "Good God man! "Batteries cannot be black! They should be yellow, like a Winston. Or blue. But not black!!! What a string of endless bullshit.

I'm done. My truck is great, The forum sucks. Fight among yourselves for the best bullying and take down of Marko and Tuomo and Donut Lab, and those VTT smarty pants that are proving you wrong.

 

[Shmoe]

Kinda weird how it resembles the charge curve of an NMC cell if it's got no lithium.

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