What is needed to provide power, to house, via 240v plug in truck?

[RickLightning]

I have no interest in using the Bi-directional capability. Too expensive to install, requires the truck be charged and plugged in. So, 2 months ago when we were visiting family, would have taken the truck if we owned it then. Power was out for 2 days then another 1/2 day. Whole house generator installed September 2022 performed great.

We paid way more to have generator running constantly than our electrical usage justified. Had we been home, given it was 40s and 50s, I would have turned off the generator, then back on say 4 to 6 hours later to warm house and cool fridges, then off again. I would have turned it off at bedtime, and then on again in morning 6 hours later. Natural gas cost via electrical needs. We spent like $60 in gas, when our electrical usage would have been under $20...

We have lived here over 15 years. Finally put in the whole house generator to give us flexibility to travel in retirement without worry, after 6 outages in a year.

So, here is my question. I know that to put in the generator, they had to isolate the neutrals in the panel for the install. I saw them all tied to a busbar screwed to the box side.

So, if I was home, I might be interested in plugging the Lightning into a plug in the garage to provide our needs, assuming they were not high (i.e. not in peak of summer with AC running). I would hire an electrician, and I would get an inspection.

I would manage load by turning off breakers, like the car charger, and the AC. We would not do wash, nor run the dryer or dishwasher. Cooktop is gas. Water heater is gas. Electric oven would likely not be used given our ability to use the cooktop.

I know I could run extension cords to power fridge, sump pump. But that doesn't run the well, or the septic pump, or the furnaces, or AC.

I know electricians are often uninformed regarding the Lightning and some here are quite knowledgeable.

Can someone list what has to be done just to provide an outlet to plug the truck into the house to feed the panel? I am interested in general statements, like "you would need to buy a bonded neutral transfer switch" or "you would have to manually turn off the generator's transfer switch breaker". Note - no idea, just showing examples.

I am interested in relative cost, is this $500? More?

Right now the meter feeds the transfer switch which feeds the panel. I have a 60amp charger circuit with 4 conductors (neutral not used) and two JB48s load sharing.

Garage sits next to basement, so any cable run is 50 feet or less.

Thanks!

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[Walle1jm]

Recently I had my electrician move my generator inlet box to my garage to make it easier to plug in the 240 to the truck in the event if a power outage. It was at the back of the house so now I only need a 10ft RV style cable instead of 100ft.

Our house came with the transfer switch panel and the generator outlet. Based on my experience with the truck throwing the ground fault the electrician unbonded the neutral from the ground in the switch. The truck still threw a ground fault. I believe he then disconnected the ground in the generator inlet box and alas, we had success!

I don’t know much about this stuff but trust the electrician as it’s from a big firm in my area and sounds like the panel is still grounded so no safety issues.

Hope that helps!

 

[Maquis]

It sounds like you have an automatic transfer switch between the meter and your main panel. That cuts over to the genny on loss of utility power.
The fact that the neutrals and EGCs are isolated in your panel is good.

The first option is a second (manual) transfer switch in between the existing one and your panel. It needs to be of the type that switches the neutral. The downside to this is that the new transfer switch needs to be rated for your service (200A?) even though the truck can only supply 30A.

Second option would to install a “critical loads” subpanel and power it from a breaker in your current panel through a smaller (probably 60A) manual transfer switch (again, one that switches the neutral) to select between the truck and the main panel.

Without more details, it hard to say for sure, but my gut tells me option 1 would cost less…..1 big transfer switch vs a smaller one with a subpanel. Option 1 also gives you the most flexibility regarding what loads to power when on backup.

 

[Calvin H-C]

Adding the ability to use the Pro Power 240 V outlet is essentially the same as adding a backup generator (as others have mentioned). A transfer switch/panel is needed. The extent of its complexity and cost will be based on what you have and what you want it to do (provide whole-house backup or just for select circuits).

When we built our house 20 years ago, I had "critical" circuits run off a transfer switch (refrigerator, freezer, furnace, water heater, hallway lighting and one hall outlet on each floor, and communications equipment - with use, we found the microwave circuit should be here as well).

This received backup power from an inlet (240 V/30 A twist lock) that had a natural gas outlet near it. Our generator was converted to use NG or propane in addition to gas.

With the upcoming arrival of my wife's Lightning, we plan to install a new inlet in our garage and either rewire to it, or possibly use another transfer device to switch between the existing inlet and the new one.

 

[Maquis]

Adding the ability to use the Pro Power 240 V outlet is essentially the same as adding a backup generator (as others have mentioned).

One key difference is that most generators have provisions to ”un-bond” the neutral to ground. The Lightning does not. It’s nothing that can’t be handled as long as the installer knows what they’re doing and you have the right equipment.

 

[Henry Ford]

I installed a Generac 6852 Manual Transfer Switch. It's essentially a critical load sub-panel. I did the work myself for about $500 or maybe a little less.

If you already have a neutral switching transfer switch there's probably a relatively simple way of integrating a Power Inlet Box into your setup. @Maquis has good ideas. I think if you do some more research on transfer switch options and take it to an electrician experienced in back-up power solutions you will get.to where you want to be.

 

[Calvin H-C]

One key difference is that most generators have provisions to ”un-bond” the neutral to ground. The Lightning does not. It’s nothing that can’t be handled as long as the installer knows what they’re doing and you have the right equipment.

The basic reason for this is that within an electrical service (like one's home), there can only be one point where the neutral is bonded to ground. This is usually the main service panel.

(Electrical geek stuff follows...)

I'll note here that your local codes should always be followed.

There should be no other place where the two are connected. When a generator is used to provide power without connection to something like a home, it's neutral can (and should) be bonded to its ground. When it is connected to a system that already has the neutral bonded, the generator must be "un-bonded".

The reason for this is that the neutral can carry current under normal circumstances while the ground does not. Conductors are not "perfect" with zero resistance, so current passing through the neutral results on a small voltage drop, depending on the amount of current and the length and gauge of the conductor. At a piece of equipment, the neutral may be a volt or few relative to the ground. If the neutral and ground were connected at the equipment, it can leave a chassis a few volts from ground. If a someone were to touch it while being grounded, they will create a path for current to flow. That could result in anything from a slight tingle to a heart-stopping incident.

Electrical codes tend to use the terms "grounded conductor" for the neutral and "grounding conductor" for the ground. I'm in Canada, and the Canadian Electrical Code and its regional versions use these terms. They sound similar, but they aren't. The neutrsl is "grounded", usually at the service entrance. The ground provides "grounding" for equipment powered by the system.

Whoever is installing a transfer switch will know this when the doing the job, as Maquis said.

 

[chl]

Recently I had my electrician move my generator inlet box to my garage to make it easier to plug in the 240 to the truck in the event if a power outage. It was at the back of the house so now I only need a 10ft RV style cable instead of 100ft.

Our house came with the transfer switch panel and the generator outlet. Based on my experience with the truck throwing the ground fault the electrician unbonded the neutral from the ground in the switch. The truck still threw a ground fault. I believe he then disconnected the ground in the generator inlet box and alas, we had success!

I don’t know much about this stuff but trust the electrician as it’s from a big firm in my area and sounds like the panel is still grounded so no safety issues.

Hope that helps!

I have no interest in using the Bi-directional capability. Too expensive to install, requires the truck be charged and plugged in. So, 2 months ago when we were visiting family, would have taken the truck if we owned it then. Power was out for 2 days then another 1/2 day. Whole house generator installed September 2022 performed great.

We paid way more to have generator running constantly than our electrical usage justified. Had we been home, given it was 40s and 50s, I would have turned off the generator, then back on say 4 to 6 hours later to warm house and cool fridges, then off again. I would have turned it off at bedtime, and then on again in morning 6 hours later. Natural gas cost via electrical needs. We spent like $60 in gas, when our electrical usage would have been under $20...

We have lived here over 15 years. Finally put in the whole house generator to give us flexibility to travel in retirement without worry, after 6 outages in a year.

So, here is my question. I know that to put in the generator, they had to isolate the neutrals in the panel for the install. I saw them all tied to a busbar screwed to the box side.

So, if I was home, I might be interested in plugging the Lightning into a plug in the garage to provide our needs, assuming they were not high (i.e. not in peak of summer with AC running). I would hire an electrician, and I would get an inspection.

I would manage load by turning off breakers, like the car charger, and the AC. We would not do wash, nor run the dryer or dishwasher. Cooktop is gas. Water heater is gas. Electric oven would likely not be used given our ability to use the cooktop.

I know I could run extension cords to power fridge, sump pump. But that doesn't run the well, or the septic pump, or the furnaces, or AC.

I know electricians are often uninformed regarding the Lightning and some here are quite knowledgeable.

Can someone list what has to be done just to provide an outlet to plug the truck into the house to feed the panel? I am interested in general statements, like "you would need to buy a bonded neutral transfer switch" or "you would have to manually turn off the generator's transfer switch breaker". Note - no idea, just showing examples.

I am interested in relative cost, is this $500? More?

Right now the meter feeds the transfer switch which feeds the panel. I have a 60amp charger circuit with 4 conductors (neutral not used) and two JB48s load sharing.

Garage sits next to basement, so any cable run is 50 feet or less.

Thanks!

I believe you need a GFI transfer switch to avoid the ground fault tripping in the F-150 Lightning 240v/30A outlets which apparently are GFCI protected.

Most GFCI's found on portable generators are there to protect the 15/20A, 120-volt outlets, and not the 120/240 outlets that are used to connect to home transfer switches.

However, you need a GFI transfer switch to connect any generator (like to F-150 Lightning) to your home if the generator 120/240-volt outlets are GFCI protected - without a GFI transfer switch it creates a ground loop and trips the circuit.

I would have the same issue in my home I believe because I do not think my manual transfer switch that I use for my gas generator (use rarely) is a GFI transfer switch.

For the source of this info, see: https://www.electricgeneratorsdirec...ipping-a-Generator-With-a-Bonded-Neutral.html

I believe they are who I bought my equipment from years ago.

An example of a GFI transfer switch: https://www.wincogenerator.com/product/reliance-manual-transfer-switch/

 

[chl]

The basic reason for this is that within an electrical service (like one's home), there can only be one point where the neutral is bonded to ground. This is usually the main service panel.

(Electrical geek stuff follows...)

There should be no other place where the two are connected. When a generator is used to provide power without connection to something like a home, it's neutral can (and should) be bonded to its ground. When it is connected to a system that already has the neutral bonded, the generator must be "un-bonded".

Accurate but one might get the idea that a solution would be to alter the generator to make it unbonded when connecting to a home. However, one should never alter/unbond the generator if it is bonded on the 240v outlets. It would be dangerous when using the generator out in the field, will/could void any warranty, and could violate various regulations.

Instead one should get a GFI transfer switch if the generator (like the F-150) has a bonded system, to avoid the ground loop tripping of the GFCI circuit.

For example: https://www.wincogenerator.com/product/reliance-manual-transfer-switch/

 

[Maquis]

The basic reason for this is that within an electrical service (like one's home), there can only be one point where the neutral is bonded to ground. This is usually the main service panel.

(Electrical geek stuff follows...)

I'll note here that your local codes should always be followed.

There should be no other place where the two are connected. When a generator is used to provide power without connection to something like a home, it's neutral can (and should) be bonded to its ground. When it is connected to a system that already has the neutral bonded, the generator must be "un-bonded".

The reason for this is that the neutral can carry current under normal circumstances while the ground does not. Conductors are not "perfect" with zero resistance, so current passing through the neutral results on a small voltage drop, depending on the amount of current and the length and gauge of the conductor. At a piece of equipment, the neutral may be a volt or few relative to the ground. If the neutral and ground were connected at the equipment, it can leave a chassis a few volts from ground. If a someone were to touch it while being grounded, they will create a path for current to flow. That could result in anything from a slight tingle to a heart-stopping incident.

Electrical codes tend to use the terms "grounded conductor" for the neutral and "grounding conductor" for the ground. I'm in Canada, and the Canadian Electrical Code and its regional versions use these terms. They sound similar, but they aren't. The neutrsl is "grounded", usually at the service entrance. The ground provides "grounding" for equipment powered by the system.

Whoever is installing a transfer switch will know this when the doing the job, as Maquis said.

That’s all pretty much spot-on. Except that the bond in the genny is allowed to remain as long as the transfer switch switches the neutral.
In that case, the bond at the service is no longer relevant, because the neutral is no longer connected to the panel.

 

[RickLightning]

So ballpark with labor I'm looking at $1,000 or so.

Versus running the generator, and when we're home turning it off when it's not crucial. And, I could always run an extension cord to power a frig.

The breakeven on natural gas cost to run the whole house generator, vs. adding this capability, is probably not reasonable.

Appreciate the info.

 

[chl]

That’s all pretty much spot-on. Except that the bond in the genny is allowed to remain as long as the transfer switch switches the neutral.
In that case, the bond at the service is no longer relevant, because the neutral is no longer connected to the panel.

Right, the so-called GFI transfer switches switch the neutral lines as well as the hot, so only one of either the utility neutral or the generator/F-150 neutral is connected at a time.

 

[chl]

I believe you need a GFI transfer switch to avoid the ground fault tripping in the F-150 Lightning 240v/30A outlets which apparently are GFCI protected.

Most GFCI's found on portable generators are there to protect the 15/20A, 120-volt outlets, and not the 120/240 outlets that are used to connect to home transfer switches.

However, you need a GFI transfer switch to connect any generator (like to F-150 Lightning) to your home if the generator 120/240-volt outlets are GFCI protected - without a GFI transfer switch it creates a ground loop and trips the circuit.

I would have the same issue in my home I believe because I do not think my manual transfer switch that I use for my gas generator (use rarely) is a GFI transfer switch.

For the source of this info, see: https://www.electricgeneratorsdirec...ipping-a-Generator-With-a-Bonded-Neutral.html

I believe they are who I bought my equipment from years ago.

An example of a GFI transfer switch: https://www.wincogenerator.com/product/reliance-manual-transfer-switch/

Just to clarify, the GFCI transfer switches switch the neutral wires as well as the hot, so that the bonded/grounded generator/F-150 neutral is isolated from the bonded/grounded house panel neutral.

 

[paulalex01]

Recently I had my electrician move my generator inlet box to my garage to make it easier to plug in the 240 to the truck in the event if a power outage. It was at the back of the house so now I only need a 10ft RV style cable instead of 100ft.

Our house came with the transfer switch panel and the generator outlet. Based on my experience with the truck throwing the ground fault the electrician unbonded the neutral from the ground in the switch. The truck still threw a ground fault. I believe he then disconnected the ground in the generator inlet box and alas, we had success!

I don’t know much about this stuff but trust the electrician as it’s from a big firm in my area and sounds like the panel is still grounded so no safety issues.

Hope that helps!

I've been looking for the solution. Unbonded the cord and inlet box with no success. I tried bonding the truck with the house ground, no success. Will give this a try, thanks.

 

[chl]

I've been looking for the solution. Unbonded the cord and inlet box with no success. I tried bonding the truck with the house ground, no success. Will give this a try, thanks.

You need a transfer switch that switches both the hot and the neutral so that the house's breaker panel bonded/grounded neutral is isolated from the neutral from the Ford. Older transfer switches don't generally do that. The neutral from the Ford still connects to the house circuits via the transfer switch connections and the grounds are still connected.

Modern generators have the same problem since they have a bonded/grounded neutral, but many have a way to unbond the neutral temporarily while powering a house with an older transfer switch.

I don't imagine Ford thought of that since using the 240v oultets unbonded in the field would be dangerous under certain fault conditions.

The modern transfer switches that also switch the neutral are sometimes called GFI transfer switches as well.

Another way to do it would be to temporarily unbond the house panel by -undoing the bonded connection in the panel - e.g., putting a switch between the house panel ground and the house panel neutral, but there might be (probably) would be code issues doing that.

The point is, the neutral can be bonded/grounded only at one point in the system. When on utility power, it is grounded/bonded at the panel. When on generator power with a floating neutral, at the panel. But with a modern generator (or the Ford Lightning) at the generator, or in your case, at the Lightning only. If grounded/bonded at two places, a GFCI breaker will open due to their being two paths back to the source generator/Lightning.

Good luck.

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