Would a heater module blow the hv harness? Fixed post #47

[Heliian]

I would check to see if the heater fell under the recall. https://www.nhtsa.gov/?nhtsaId=23V688000

Could be related.

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[Grumpy2]

I think the following language in the above referenced data may help arguments, altho the connection to the High Voltage side seems open to questions ...

"The electronic cabin coolant heater modules were produced on a secondary, low volume production line at the supplier that did not have processes in place to prevent an improperly soldered electronic cabin coolant module from proceeding to the next assembly operation. "

 

[chl]

For (2022 & 2023) They are one & the same, the diverter valve(s) control the flow of heat from the PTC to either the HVB or the cabin heat exchanger.

For 2024+ the PTC primary duty is to supplement heating the HVB, while the heat pump warms the cabin.

You know what puzzles me?

The heating (the PTC) is powered by the HV battery at 400VDC+, right?

But when the truck is plugged into a FCSP for example, but the truck is 'off' and not charging, the FCSP provides energy to keep the battery warm on cold nights.

Presumably the HVB contactors are open/unconnected yet the heating is happening through the FCSP connection.

So is the PTC getting 240VDC from the FCSP connection via the AC-DC converter even without the HVB connected?

On the other hand, if the HVB is connected during this warming, wouldn't our HVB show some level of charge or discharge or would the FCSP be keeping the HVB at the same SOC?

 

[chriserx]

You know what puzzles me?

The heating (the PTC) is powered by the HV battery at 400VDC+, right?

But when the truck is plugged into a FCSP for example, but the truck is 'off' and not charging, the FCSP provides energy to keep the battery warm on cold nights.

Presumably the HVB contactors are open/unconnected yet the heating is happening through the FCSP connection.

So is the PTC getting 240VDC from the FCSP connection via the AC-DC converter even without the HVB connected?

On the other hand, if the HVB is connected during this warming, wouldn't our HVB show some level of charge or discharge or would the FCSP be keeping the HVB at the same SOC?

Some claim that the pack doesn't heat at all when charging at 120v, and others claim it does but is insufficient. The ones that claim the latter could just be experiencing the heat of charging. It wasn't cold enough in SWLA when I was charging on 120. If the claim about it not heating at all is true, and the fact that, at least on my truck, the minimum pack voltage is 240 VDC, that would align well with rectifying the the L2 and directly powering the heater from it. That being said, on the few days it got cold enough to need the preconditioning, my charge level was set to 90% and after preconditioning, I enter the truck with 91 or 92% stated SOC, and it only happens on cold days. Without more data, it's hard to say whether the heating of the pack freed up more charge or whether preconditioning energy requirements were less than the charging limits so the excess went to the HVB.

 

[RLXXI]

My first and only response to something said to me by a service department regarding any repair is, "Show me the bad part" and that's before anything is ordered, NOT after the job is done.

If it does not remedy the problem, that's on THEM.

Good luck.

 

[chriserx]

I bet those

My first and only response to something said to me by a service department regarding any repair is, "Show me the bad part" and that's before anything is ordered, NOT after the job is done.

If it does not remedy the problem, that's on THEM.

Good luck.

Not to mention the fact that they went and replaced the harness, fired it up, problem still exists, realize it's another part that they claim killed the harness, how do you know if they didn't damage the new harness?

 

[chl]

Some claim that the pack doesn't heat at all when charging at 120v, and others claim it does but is insufficient. The ones that claim the latter could just be experiencing the heat of charging. It wasn't cold enough in SWLA when I was charging on 120. If the claim about it not heating at all is true, and the fact that, at least on my truck, the minimum pack voltage is 240 VDC, that would align well with rectifying the the L2 and directly powering the heater from it. That being said, on the few days it got cold enough to need the preconditioning, my charge level was set to 90% and after preconditioning, I enter the truck with 91 or 92% stated SOC, and it only happens on cold days. Without more data, it's hard to say whether the heating of the pack freed up more charge or whether preconditioning energy requirements were less than the charging limits so the excess went to the HVB.

This is my understanding:

Preconditioning when not plugged into L2 uses the HVB to preheat the cabin, but not condition the battery. When unplugged, using the HVB to precondition the cabin will inadvertently warm the HVB somewhat because energy is being transferred which will generate some heat internal to the battery.

What probably happens with L1 is when it is charging the HVB, the HVB is connected to the AC-DC converter and therefore also to the PTC, so the HVB battery is preconditioning itself using both the L1 and the HVB power. It might end up using more energy to precondition the HVB than to charge the HVB with the L1 connection, so the net energy is out of the HVB not into it.

Preconditioning when plugged into L2 uses grid power to precondition both the cabin and the battery, presumably through the AC to DC converter to provide the 400+VDC to the resistive heating unit (PTC).

When plugged in to L2 and charging, the HVB will also be warming the battery. If the rate of L2 energy transfer (current) is higher than the energy transferred to warm the HVB, then the HVB will gain charge.

I am just curious about the connection between the charge port and the PTC, I assume the wiring is from the AC-DC converter and the HVB is out of the picture excpt when charging.

 

[ronscantlin]

I would check to see if the heater fell under the recall. https://www.nhtsa.gov/?nhtsaId=23V688000

Could be related.

It’s a 22, I believe it’s not covered. It’s also not on the list of open recalls for my veh. “Ford F-150 Lightning heater recall (23C32/NHTSA 23V688) for select 2023 models (built July-Aug 2023)”

 

[chl]

Th

It’s Halloween, from my phone, I send the command to prepare the cabin for departure, and WHAM!, charging fault. I’m not too worried about it, seen it before, usually a glitch or something.
This time was different.
Have the truck towed, as now I can’t move it, it’s throwing the red death screen on both the truck to stop safely now and the phone that there’s an hv system fault.
A few days later, the dealer said to replace the HV harness.
Fast forward a couple months to now, and they’ve FINALLY finished replacing the harness (harness was on back order), and the tech experienced the same fault. Not fixed.
Now they’ve diagnosed the heater module as the culprit.
BUT the dealer still wants me to pay for the harness replacement.

Would a heater module “blow” the hv harness?

First of all, the HV harness should be considered part of the HV battery system and covered by the 8 year warranty assuming your are under 100k miles.
-----
(2) The high voltage battery and eDrive systems of your vehicle
are covered by the Electric Vehicle Component coverage for eight
years or 100,000 miles, whichever comes first. High voltage
battery and eDrive components covered by this warranty include
the high voltage battery assembly, Bussed Electrical Center
(BEC), Battery Energy Control Module (BECM), on-board
charger, Inverter System Controller (ISC), DC/DC converter, and
eDrive.

What is Not Covered...
-----
It does not say the "HV harness" is not covered, and "included" is open, that is, it does not mean "only" the items listed.

Also, if they try to say it is not covered by the 8yr warranty, if still under 3 years old, it should also be covered by the bumper to bumper warranty, as would the heater element.

The PTC is powered the HVB presumably through the harness they are referring to.

Irregardless, they are the ones who diagnosed the harness as the problem and decided to replace it so if that was NOT the problem, they should be on the hook for it whether covered by the warranty or not.

Was the vehicle in an accident that might have damaged the heater then now say is the 'culprit?' If not it must be a manufacturing or design defect for which Ford should be responsible to replace or repair.

 

[ronscantlin]

Th

First of all, the HV harness should be considered part of the HV battery system and covered by the 8 year warranty assuming your are under 100k miles.
-----
(2) The high voltage battery and eDrive systems of your vehicle
are covered by the Electric Vehicle Component coverage for eight
years or 100,000 miles, whichever comes first. High voltage
battery and eDrive components covered by this warranty include
the high voltage battery assembly, Bussed Electrical Center
(BEC), Battery Energy Control Module (BECM), on-board
charger, Inverter System Controller (ISC), DC/DC converter, and
eDrive.

What is Not Covered...
-----
It does not say the "HV harness" is not covered, and "included" is open, that is, it does not mean "only" the items listed.

Also, if they try to say it is not covered by the 8yr warranty, if still under 3 years old, it should also be covered by the bumper to bumper warranty, as would the heater element.

The PTC is powered the HVB presumably through the harness they are referring to.

Irregardless, they are the ones who diagnosed the harness as the problem and decided to replace it so if that was NOT the problem, they should be on the hook for it whether covered by the warranty or not.

Was the vehicle in an accident that might have damaged the heater then now say is the 'culprit?' If not it must be a manufacturing or design defect for which Ford should be responsible to replace or repair.

No accident that I’m aware of. Bought used and clean Carfax. I’ve called Ford N.A. and they’re in agreement with the dealer that the hv cable is not covered the way the warranty is written. I’ve also passed the 36k miles mark, so no dice bumper to bumper.

 

[ronscantlin]

My first and only response to something said to me by a service department regarding any repair is, "Show me the bad part" and that's before anything is ordered, NOT after the job is done.

If it does not remedy the problem, that's on THEM.

Good luck.

Great advice! However, the hv harness, originally suspected, was tested via bed removal and probing, according to ford’s trouble-tree, according to the tech. They basically talked me into it, even tried to sell me a different truck, but I’m stubborn and I like this one, so…..

 

[ronscantlin]

I bet those

Not to mention the fact that they went and replaced the harness, fired it up, problem still exists, realize it's another part that they claim killed the harness, how do you know if they didn't damage the new harness?

I guess I’ll find out when the heater module comes in. I’ll report back with the final resolution. I’ve also requested the original parts from the very beginning, out of curiosity, to inspect and determine point of failure. Unfortunately, the parts are not in my custody, so they could be molesting them to their favor. I don’t like thinking like that, but I’m thinking like that.

 

[chl]

No accident that I’m aware of. Bought used and clean Carfax. I’ve called Ford N.A. and they’re in agreement with the dealer that the hv cable is not covered the way the warranty is written. I’ve also passed the 36k miles mark, so no dice bumper to bumper.

Although I disagree an would argue it if it were me, at least now we all know how they will treat the HV harness.

Are they saying the HV harness was blown by the heater now and needed replacing along with the heater (PTC)?

Then it's a defective heater unless damaged by an accident or something, which should be on Ford's dime.

OMG I guess we know what we might be in for should we face a heater failure with a Ford.

It was used, was it a lemon buy back? If so Ford is required by law to tell you that.

Using the VIN, look up the service history and see if this heater was an issue before, or maybe it was subject to the recall and that never got done by the previous owner. Ford should have done all outstanding recalls before they sold it to you which I think might also be required by law.

What a pain!

 

[RLXXI]

Great advice! However, the hv harness, originally suspected, was tested via bed removal and probing, according to ford’s trouble-tree, according to the tech. They basically talked me into it, even tried to sell me a different truck, but I’m stubborn and I like this one, so…..

You still have a right to inspect the evidence they found to determine the problem, physical access at the very least, I would always provide my customers computer prints of the diag.

If that machine has less than 100,000 miles on it, everything you've said so far is 100% covered under Ford's HVB warranty enter your trucks info and look at the warranty guide, it lists every single thing covered.

Don't know what else to say but good luck.

 

[Rtashiro]

I’m sorry this happened to you but I am curious how much you were charged for this repair?

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