SunRun Require PV (Photovoltaic) system with F150 Lightning use as home back-up power

[adoublee]

I haven’t watched the video, but....why worry about a neutral in the connection between Lightning and transfer switch? Can’t you just hook up the two hot wires and the ground and it’ll work? Kinda like what comes from the grid?

Not if you have 120V loads, that use a neutral.

The inverter of the truck likely thinks it should be the source where the N-G bond exists, and N-G bond should only exist in one place. If it senses there is an external bond, it shuts itself off.

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[rtw819]

Not if you have 120V loads, that use a neutral.

The inverter of the truck likely thinks it should be the source where the N-G bond exists, and N-G bond should only exist in one place. If it senses there is an external bond, it shuts itself off.

In the video the homeowner found his "generator" extension cord was miswired (neutral and ground wires were swapped) and he pulled the plug apart to rewire it mid-segment, so I wonder if maybe the outlet/socket below the breaker panel might have been wired up wrong somehow too -- maybe a floating ground or swapped neutral?

I have to think there are folks out there that have successfully implemented this same manual transfer switch method of connection with the generator vs. mains lockout setup using their 7.2kW Pro Power on Board in the regular combustion-only ICE & Hybrid F-150's?

 

[pstansel]

If you have a transfer switch that isolates the bond it probably works fine. I'll be working with my electrician to see what I can do.

 

[adoublee]

In the video the homeowner found his "generator" extension cord was miswired (neutral and ground wires were swapped) and he pulled the plug apart to rewire it mid-segment, so I wonder if maybe the outlet/socket below the breaker panel might have been wired up wrong somehow too -- maybe a floating ground or swapped neutral?

I have to think there are folks out there that have successfully implemented this same manual transfer switch method of connection with the generator vs. mains lockout setup using their 7.2kW Pro Power on Board in the regular combustion-only ICE & Hybrid F-150's?

A properly wired 3 pole transfer switch would address the issue. Interlocked breakers will not break the neutral-ground bond. A generator can be set up with or without bond made, and may not have electronics to verify correct system wiring.

 

[shikataganai]

That said, one that seemed to me to be the most knowledgeable at the Denver event insisted back-up will occur via the AC pins of the charge port, using the inverters of the vehicle. He insisted Lighting inverter hardware was capable of this, versus MME and Transit chargers/rectifiers that are not. He also said they were told Ford would have their own transfer switch product sku and that it is being supplied with the 80A EVSE.

All the conjecture about using the DC pins of a CCS format connector on the 80A EVSE are based on the factory photo that seemed to show a CCS connection and an external inverter on the wall. It is possible that was just an R&D setup and not the final configuration.

Car & Driver didn't just invent these technical details…

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a36480020/2022-ford-f-150-lightning-charge-station-pro-explained/

Ford's 80-amp Charge Station Pro with Intelligent Backup Power features a CCS charging plug, which is the type found at Level 3 fast chargers. When connected to the Charge Station Pro, optional with the Standard Range battery but standard with the Extended Range pack, the F-150 Lightning can feed 9.6 kilowatts of power through the CCS plug's larger bottom ports, through the Charge Station Pro, and back into a home's power panel.

Couldn't be more clearly stated.

 

[adoublee]

Car & Driver didn't just invent these technical details…

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a36480020/2022-ford-f-150-lightning-charge-station-pro-explained/



Couldn't be more clearly stated.

That's nice and interesting, but they may be guessing from a photo like the rest of us. No Ford rep is on record saying what you bolded. Also the bolded connection sequence does not reference an external inverter (I don't believe could be built into the 80A EVSE due to size) and makes no reference to the required grid isolation device, so is already suspect. I'm confident they didn't know more than any given Ford rep back in May.

 

[shikataganai]

That's nice and interesting, but they may be guessing from a photo like the rest of us. No Ford rep is on record saying what you bolded. Also the bolded connection sequence does not reference an external inverter (I don't believe could be built into the 80A EVSE due to size) and makes no reference to the required grid isolation device, so is already suspect. I'm confident they didn't know more than any given Ford rep back in May.

from this thread of mine:

https://www.f150gen14.com/forum/threads/ford-80a-charge-station-pro.4139/

in turn from footage from within Ford's facilities while the videographer in question was on tour.

That's a CCS connector. Home charging is clearly via AC and the J1772 pins supplied by the standard EVSE side of things—no one is claiming 480V DC in garages is a thing. The other pins aren't there just for fun.

 

[adoublee]

from this thread of mine:

https://www.f150gen14.com/forum/threads/ford-80a-charge-station-pro.4139/

in turn from footage from within Ford's facilities while the videographer in question was on tour.

That's a CCS connector. Home charging is clearly via AC and the J1772 pins supplied by the standard EVSE side of things—no one is claiming 480V DC in garages is a thing. The other pins aren't there just for fun.

Ford rep says production 80A EVSE will not have a CCS connector. As I stated, this may be some kind of R&D setup. They don't even have a holster for it.

 

[skaphan]

A properly wired 3 pole transfer switch would address the issue. Interlocked breakers will not break the neutral-ground bond. A generator can be set up with or without bond made, and may not have electronics to verify correct system wiring.

I'm admittedly at the limit of knowing what I'm talking about here, but maybe to use interlocked breakers it is a matter of how the cable to the truck is made up? Why is it even important for neutral to be bonded to ground in the truck? There is no real earth ground there. So maybe the truck ground doesn't need to be connected to the house ground?? It seems like it would not be a safe idea for the neutral-ground bonding in the house to be disturbed. And as far as I understand, the idea is to have a single point where neutral and ground are bonded.

 

[Fastnf]

It has to do with proper GFCI operation. The truck most likely has a bounded neutral which would need to be converted to a floating neutral to work with a house interlock.

Below is a description from my generator manual on how to set up the generator for use with a house interlock. This procedure probaly is not available on the truck as it would disable the GFCI plugs on the truck.



"TRANSFER SWITCH CONNECTIONS

The Westinghouse generator is wired with the neutral bonded to ground. If you are connecting your generator to a panel board transfer switch, a licensed electrician will need to consider removing the bonded neutral to ensure proper operation of household GFCI circuits. Begin by removing the alternator cover. Once the cover is off remove the nut that holds the bonded ground jumper wire (see “2” in Figure 6). Once the nut is removed take the bonded jumper wire off and re-secure the nut. Next remove the screw holding the neutral ground wire (see “1” in Figure 6). Attach the bonded jumper wire (2) to the neutral ground (1) and tighten the screw.

If the bonded neutral is removed the generator must be relabeled as floating neutral on the control panel.

If your generator is equipped with GFCI receptacles, removing the bonded neutral may not allow proper operation of the GFCI receptacles. Always keep the jumper wire in case it is needed for future use when not connected to a transfer switch."

I'm admittedly at the limit of knowing what I'm talking about here, but maybe to use interlocked breakers it is a matter of how the cable to the truck is made up? Why is it even important for neutral to be bonded to ground in the truck? There is no real earth ground there. So maybe the truck ground doesn't need to be connected to the house ground?? It seems like it would not be a safe idea for the neutral-ground bonding in the house to be disturbed. And as far as I understand, the idea is to have a single point where neutral and ground are bonded.

 

[RonTCat]

It has to do with proper GFCI operation. The truck most likely has a bounded neutral which would need to be converted to a floating neutral to work with a house interlock.

Below is a description from my generator manual on how to set up the generator for use with a house interlock. This procedure probaly is not available on the truck as it would disable the GFCI plugs on the truck.



"TRANSFER SWITCH CONNECTIONS

The Westinghouse generator is wired with the neutral bonded to ground. If you are connecting your generator to a panel board transfer switch, a licensed electrician will need to consider removing the bonded neutral to ensure proper operation of household GFCI circuits. Begin by removing the alternator cover. Once the cover is off remove the nut that holds the bonded ground jumper wire (see “2” in Figure 6). Once the nut is removed take the bonded jumper wire off and re-secure the nut. Next remove the screw holding the neutral ground wire (see “1” in Figure 6). Attach the bonded jumper wire (2) to the neutral ground (1) and tighten the screw.

If the bonded neutral is removed the generator must be relabeled as floating neutral on the control panel.

If your generator is equipped with GFCI receptacles, removing the bonded neutral may not allow proper operation of the GFCI receptacles. Always keep the jumper wire in case it is needed for future use when not connected to a transfer switch."

I haven't seen the electrical schematic in detail, but I might also assume vehicles effectively have a bonded neutral. Something to look into.

Getting an earth ground in a vehicle is tricky, due having rubber tires as the only contact point with earth. FYI, the tires by design tend to have a lower impedance to ground. Having them be an insulator would be a bad thing... if you want to understand why the tires need to be low impedance, look up Van der Graaff generator, because without low impedance tires the vehicle becomes one...

 

[metroshot]

Anyone know if the Tesla powerwall w/ solar will integrate with the Lightning ??

 

[watchdoc]

I wanna make the F150 Lightning the center piece of my Selfish Solar Peak shaving setup. Sign up for cheap time of use rates and charge the truck overnight for 2-3 cents per KW and let the trucks battery take up the slack during morning ramp up and evening peaks. Solar can cover the day time use. Screw those crappy grid tie buy back rates. I'd rather just charge the truck or heat water with any excess solar.

 

[jefro]

That is kind of the way the Ford is selling the truck with 80A charger.

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