Intentionally pushing the tax credit, old fashioned way?

[chl]

REACHING

Oh I thought you were referring to the new administration changing the law, not some rogue dealership. Yes, the dealership can't change the law...maybe they are too lazy (or dumb) to take the time to understand the law?

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[chl]

They said they weren't setup to give me the tax credit at time of purchase but that I could do it at tax time. That was fine. Well then, a month or so later, I found out I was supposed to have received this form from them. I asked them about it and they said they didn't need to.

If they weren't set up to give you the credit up front, then that means they hadn't gotten set up with the IRS, which also means they weren't set up to report the sale to the IRS.

Not to defend them, but the IRS did not give dealerships much time to get ready before Jan 1, 2024, so there are a lot of Lightning owners in the same boat as you are.

Some dealerships gave a discount on the sale because they hadn't gotten set up and they wanted to compete in price with other dealerships that were ready.

But even without the form, you can claim it.

I believe all the info the IRS needs is in the VIN. But get ready to file a copy of your Window Sticker and/or sale documents that show the MSRP and that you weren't given the tax credit at the time of sale. I think that should be enough...but you know, it's the IRS so who knows for sure.

At my age, dealerships and other businesses trying to screw me is nothing new, so I don't get mad, I get even, by taking my business elsewhere.

Giving them a bad review is upping the ante. You have to be very careful to be completely truthful and accurate, suing people for libel for bad reviews or criticism is becoming a hobby for some bad actors (and a certain politician), but truth is an absolute defense...if you can prove the facts. Opinions are not actionable generally speaking unless they contain factual inaccuracies.

So chill and file your IRS paperwork and I think you'll be fine and get the tax credit if you and the vehicle qualify.

Good luck!

 

[TaxmanHog]

I'd get prepared to submit the window sticker or paperwork that shows the MSRP to file as attachments to your forms. Even if you e-file I think you could attache a PDF of the paperwork proof.

Maybe, but that's not going to resolve an immediate processing reject.

I'm looking forward to one or more of these claims going sideways (DENIED), there may be a new appeals processes coming for this scenario.

If the claim is approved at face value irregardless of a missing IRP document {Information Return Program} the IRS side of the form 15400 posted to the taxpayer IRP file, then the tax return might kick out in annual CP-2000 audit cycle, that's the point the taxpayer might be able to substantiate a qualified claim from in imperfect claim, hold onto these documents for a full three years of filing the tax return, you never know when the IRS will come knocking on the door or mail box. The Assessment statute of limitations is generally 3 years from return due date, but can be extended to 6 in certain situations (substantial underreporting or criminal matters).

I'd really like to see these dealers that are shrugging their responsibility to comply with the law / regulation / process receive a civil penalty, it's an appropriate slap on their wrist for dereliction of duty.

The Ford Motor Company can also enforce provisions with dealers about sales of EV's and facilitating more sales by making the credit either available up front during purchase and providing form 15400 to substantiate the activity of transfer or non-transfer of the credit.

 

[chl]

Maybe, but that's not going to resolve an immediate processing reject.

I'm looking forward to one or more of these claims going sideways (DENIED), there may be a new appeals processes coming for this scenario.

If the claim is approved at face value irregardless of a missing IRP document {Information Return Program} the IRS side of the form 15400 posted to the taxpayer IRP file, then the tax return might kick out in annual CP-2000 audit cycle, that's the point the taxpayer might be able to substantiate a qualified claim from in imperfect claim, hold onto these documents for a full three years of filing the tax return, you never know when the IRS will come knocking on the door or mail box. The Assessment statute of limitations is generally 3 years from return due date, but can be extended to 6 in certain situations (substantial underreporting or criminal matters).

I'd really like to see these dealers that are shrugging their responsibility to comply with the law / regulation / process receive a civil penalty, it's an appropriate slap on their wrist for dereliction of duty.

The Ford Motor Company can also enforce provisions with dealers about sales of EV's and facilitating more sales by making the credit either available up front during purchase and providing form 15400 to substantiate the activity of transfer or non-transfer of the credit.

That's a possibility for sure.
If that is what they do initially, compare the form VIN to those received from dealerships then if no match reject it automatically.
The few times there was an error like that in my filings, they sent me a letter and gave me a time period to provide an explanation and documentation - once I had a missing 1098 that a lender had filed with the IRS but I had not gotten a copy so hadn't reported it - the nicest kind of mistake because I filed an amended return and got a bigger refund as a result.
Time will tell how the IRS deals with all the folks who bought from dealerships that did not report the sale.

 

[chl]

Wrong.

If you take it at time of purchase, then only the income test is done at time of filing. If your tax liability is insufficient, you give nothing back.

Relax. File your taxes.

They seem to have changed that:
------------------------------------

If the vehicle qualifies for a credit, you have two options:

1. You can claim the credit on your tax return for the year in which it was placed in service using Form 8936.
2. You can transfer the credit to the dealer so that they can apply the credit amount to your final purchase cost. This essentially allows you to receive the benefit of the credit at the time of sale. The dealer will be reimbursed by IRS. See Clean Vehicle Credit Transfer: Information you need to provide to the registered dealer.
   
   You must still fill out Form 8936 reporting your eligibility for the credit and your decision to transfer the credit to the dealer.

Note that if the vehicle qualifies but you do not qualify for the credit for any reason (e.g., your modified adjusted gross income exceeds certain thresholds), you must reimburse IRS for any difference in the credit for which you are eligible and the benefit you received from the dealer. Dealers are not required to verify the eligibility of the buyer at the time of sale. It is your responsibility to ensure that you meet all buyer requirements. The dealer is, however, required to provide the modified adjusted gross income requirements for your information.

https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/tax2023.shtml#requirements

 

[rdr854]

I purchased my truck back in April from Robert Horne Ford in the Phoenix area. They said they weren't setup to give me the tax credit at time of purchase but that I could do it at tax time. That was fine. Well then, a month or so later, I found out I was supposed to have received this form from them. I asked them about it and they said they didn't need to. I pushed and they said it didn't exist. I shared links, fliers, and even a power point presentation to teach dealers about this, all that I sourced from IRS.gov.

Many phone calls later, chats with Ford Mo Co, who confirmed the dealer should do it, but said they couldn't force them to, and many online reviews, news agency requests, Facebook page posts, and a BBB complaint (they didn't respond and I found out they have a D- rating) later, I have still yet to get a phone call back from their GM who I'm told the issue is escalated up to. I then filed a complaint with the Attorney General who has been going back and forth with them for a few months but still with no resolution.

Now that we're upon tax time, does anyone have any ideas to help me get this for my returns? I'm absolutely beside myself that a company can treat a customer this way and just flat out ignore them. While I have been a big pest to them, I've never been disrespectful or raised my voice with any of their staff and have given them no reason to keep ignoring me. I'm also wondering how many people they will have beating down their door if their tax credit gets denied... Anyone have any other ideas?

Talk to a consumer protection attorney and sue them.

 

[chl]

That's a possibility for sure.
If that is what they do initially, compare the form VIN to those received from dealerships then if no match reject it automatically.
The few times there was an error like that in my filings, they sent me a letter and gave me a time period to provide an explanation and documentation - once I had a missing 1098 that a lender had filed with the IRS but I had not gotten a copy so hadn't reported it - the nicest kind of mistake because I filed an amended return and got a bigger refund as a result.
Time will tell how the IRS deals with all the folks who bought from dealerships that did not report the sale.

Here's another wrinkle from the FAQs:
-----

Q15. I input a VIN for a vehicle identified by a qualified manufacturer as an eligible vehicle, but it came back as ineligible. Is this accurate? Who do I contact for additional information? Is there a list of vehicles that are eligible for the credit? (added July 26, 2024)

A15. Qualified manufacturers identify and report eligible VINs to the IRS. IRS Energy Credits Online provides real-time confirmation of a vehicle’s eligibility using VINs provided by qualified manufacturers. Qualified manufacturers submit VINs of qualifying vehicles which are matched to time-of-sale reports. If a qualified manufacturer has not provided the IRS with a VIN for an eligible vehicle, the time-of-sale report will be rejected until the manufacturer provides the VIN to the IRS. We are working with qualified manufacturers to ensure all eligible VINs have been submitted. For a list of vehicles that qualify for the New Clean Vehicle Credit see
FAQ 2.

-----
So the qualified vehicle VIN is already going to be in some database at the IRS whether or not the time-of-sale report is sent in.

So there is another argument to support the claim of the credit, assuming Ford sent in the VIN for the vehicle in question.

 

[RickLightning]

They seem to have changed that:
------------------------------------

If the vehicle qualifies for a credit, you have two options:

1. You can claim the credit on your tax return for the year in which it was placed in service using Form 8936.
2. You can transfer the credit to the dealer so that they can apply the credit amount to your final purchase cost. This essentially allows you to receive the benefit of the credit at the time of sale. The dealer will be reimbursed by IRS. See Clean Vehicle Credit Transfer: Information you need to provide to the registered dealer.
   
   You must still fill out Form 8936 reporting your eligibility for the credit and your decision to transfer the credit to the dealer.

Note that if the vehicle qualifies but you do not qualify for the credit for any reason (e.g., your modified adjusted gross income exceeds certain thresholds), you must reimburse IRS for any difference in the credit for which you are eligible and the benefit you received from the dealer. Dealers are not required to verify the eligibility of the buyer at the time of sale. It is your responsibility to ensure that you meet all buyer requirements. The dealer is, however, required to provide the modified adjusted gross income requirements for your information.

https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/tax2023.shtml#requirements

No. Your understanding is not correct.

If you transfer it, only the income test applies.

 

[RocketGhost]

If they weren't set up to give you the credit up front, then that means they hadn't gotten set up with the IRS, which also means they weren't set up to report the sale to the IRS.

But even without the form, you can claim it.

I believe all the info the IRS needs is in the VIN. But get ready to file a copy of your Window Sticker and/or sale documents that show the MSRP and that you weren't given the tax credit at the time of sale. I think that should be enough...but you know, it's the IRS so who knows for sure.

Dealers getting set up to give point of sales credits is actually an additional process than just registering to report a sale. So dealers may be able to report but not give POS credits. The IRS has stated that dealers don't have to give the credit at POS if they don't want to.

As posted earlier the IRS has guidance for when you didn't get the 15400 from from the dealer. But it's based on the premise that the dealer reported and has the form but they just didn't give you a copy. That guidance doesn't address the situation when the dealer didn't report and the form was never generated in the first place.

I believe the IRS wants the sale reported because a vehicle's eligibility could change at any moment despite the manufacturer supplying eligible VINs to the IRS. For example, a truck could qualify in 2024 but not in 2025 due to different battery manufacturing and mineral requirements. The IRS has the power to revoke eligibility at any time. Reporting also checks to make sure the truck wasn't previously sold.

The IRS at present is very clear that if the sale wasn't reported in three days the truck is ineligible and the credit is gone. What remains to be seen is how they will handle the likely large number of taxpayers who will be getting screwed by dealers not reporting.

 

[RocketGhost]

I purchased my truck back in April from Robert Horne Ford in the Phoenix area. They said they weren't setup to give me the tax credit at time of purchase but that I could do it at tax time. That was fine. Well then, a month or so later, I found out I was supposed to have received this form from them. I asked them about it and they said they didn't need to. I pushed and they said it didn't exist. I shared links, fliers, and even a power point presentation to teach dealers about this, all that I sourced from IRS.gov.

Now that we're upon tax time, does anyone have any ideas to help me get this for my returns?

The only thing I recommend as a non-tax professional is to claim the credit on your taxes and see what happens. If the IRS rejects it, talk to the IRS and explain the situation. If they say you're SOL go have a meeting with the GM of the dealer and tell him that if he doesn't give you a $7,500 check you will file suit against them in small claims court. I don't know what the outcome in court would be but I think you have a strong case.

 

[TreatYoSelf]

Get a time-of-sale report!
I'm 6+ months from purchase and still waiting for my POS tax credit. I know this isn't the exact situation as the OP, but I've learned more than I care about the 2024 EV tax credit.

Let me specify that this process is different from the 2023/2022 process of filing. The new for 2024, time-of-sale report is vital for getting your tax credit at POS or later with your tax filing. According to the IRS site, in 2024, you must obtain a time-of-sale within 3 days of the sale to be eligible for the tax credit; this is applicable for both the POS credit and filing for the credit later. If you decide not to transfer your tax credit to the dealer, and take the POS credit, then you'll file Form 8936 with your taxes.

When I purchased my Lightning in June 2024, my VIN showed as ineligible through the dealer's IRS portal. I was unable to receive a time-of-sale report. My dealer rep kept trying over the days after my sale but had no luck.

I called and emailed the IRS several times about my tax credit. During my exchanges, I learned that the vehicle manufacturer provides the IRS with VINs eligible for the tax credit. This eligibility information lives in the IRS dealer portal, which a registered dealer accesses to produce the required time-of-sale report.

Ultimately, I tracked my VIN issues to all the Ford pricing changes that happened for MY24. When I ordered my truck in late 2023, my MSPR was <$80k. When Ford built my truck in February 2024, my online window sticker showed an MSRP >$80k. When I took delivery, Ford updated the window sticker with new pricing, and the MSRP was <$80k. However, Ford had not updated the tax credit eligibility with the IRS.

Problem identified... but now what!?

Over the past few months, my dealer rep has been AMAZING about helping me and resubmitting requests (Tori at Larry Miller Ford in Colorado is a rockstar!)

Clearly, I missed this 3-day window by many months. At some point, Ford updated my VIN eligibility. I'm not sure when this happened. However, the IRS portal kept kicking out an error because my sale date was greater than 3 days in the past. Eventually, the IRS told me in an email to resubmit my vehicle's sales information. I had it in writing, so in December 2024 my dealer changed the sale date to the date they were resubmitting, the IRS portal accepted my VIN, provided a time-of-sale report, my dealer received the money from the IRS, and now I'm waiting for my tax credit check to arrive from the dealer.

OP, whatever you decide to do with your tax credit... get a time-of-sale report from your dealer!

 

[TaxmanHog]

Get a time-of-sale report!
I'm 6+ months from purchase and still waiting for my POS tax credit. I know this isn't the exact situation as the OP, but I've learned more than I care about the 2024 EV tax credit.

Let me specify that this process is different from the 2023/2022 process of filing. The new for 2024, time-of-sale report is vital for getting your tax credit at POS or later with your tax filing. According to the IRS site, in 2024, you must obtain a time-of-sale within 3 days of the sale to be eligible for the tax credit; this is applicable for both the POS credit and filing for the credit later. If you decide not to transfer your tax credit to the dealer, and take the POS credit, then you'll file Form 8936 with your taxes.

When I purchased my Lightning in June 2024, my VIN showed as ineligible through the dealer's IRS portal. I was unable to receive a time-of-sale report. My dealer rep kept trying over the days after my sale but had no luck.

I called and emailed the IRS several times about my tax credit. During my exchanges, I learned that the vehicle manufacturer provides the IRS with VINs eligible for the tax credit. This eligibility information lives in the IRS dealer portal, which a registered dealer accesses to produce the required time-of-sale report.

Ultimately, I tracked my VIN issues to all the Ford pricing changes that happened for MY24. When I ordered my truck in late 2023, my MSPR was <$80k. When Ford built my truck in February 2024, my online window sticker showed an MSRP >$80k. When I took delivery, Ford updated the window sticker with new pricing, and the MSRP was <$80k. However, Ford had not updated the tax credit eligibility with the IRS.

Problem identified... but now what!?

Over the past few months, my dealer rep has been AMAZING about helping me and resubmitting requests (Tori at Larry Miller Ford in Colorado is a rockstar!)

Clearly, I missed this 3-day window by many months. At some point, Ford updated my VIN eligibility. I'm not sure when this happened. However, the IRS portal kept kicking out an error because my sale date was greater than 3 days in the past. Eventually, the IRS told me in an email to resubmit my vehicle's sales information. I had it in writing, so in December 2024 my dealer changed the sale date to the date they were resubmitting, the IRS portal accepted my VIN, provided a time-of-sale report, my dealer received the money from the IRS, and now I'm waiting for my tax credit check to arrive from the dealer.

OP, whatever you decide to do with your tax credit... get a time-of-sale report from your dealer!

So.... in a nut shell ... the manufacturer needs to get their shiiiiii together and set firm pricing before they submit VIN's to the system.

 

[TreatYoSelf]

So.... in a nut shell ... the manufacturer needs to get their shiiiiii together and set firm pricing before they submit VIN's to the system.

Exactly. Ford could have saved me many hours of work and the stress of possibly losing out on $7500.

 

[chl]

No. Your understanding is not correct.

If you transfer it, only the income test applies.

Note that if the vehicle qualifies but you do not qualify for the credit for any reason (e.g., your modified adjusted gross income exceeds certain thresholds), you must reimburse IRS for any difference in the credit for which you are eligible and the benefit you received from the dealer.
---
There is an MAGI (income) test if you claim it on your return and didn't get it up front.
And there is a MAGI test if you DID get the credit up front.

If your MAGI is above the threshold, you don't get the full credit (maybe you get some pro-rated portion?).

If your income is above the MAGI threshold, AND you got the tax credit up front, you have to reimburse the IRS for the difference in the credit for which you are eligible and the benefit you received from the dealer.

That is what the IRS clearly says on the linked web page of FAQs.

If the dealership gave your $7500, then you got that benefit (and BTW, the IRS gave the dealer $7500 reimbursement if they followed the rules), and IF your income is about the MAGI threshold, you have to reimburse the IRS some amount up to the full $7500.

When I bought my Nissan Leaf in Dec. 2011, the calculation was based on tax liability, and as I recall my tax liability was less than the $7500 tax credit, somewhere around $5000, so I didn't get the full amount, only about a $5000 tax credit on my return.

The current income test MAGI thresholds are: $300k for married couples, $225k for head of household, and $150k for all other filing statuses (e.g., single).

But if you don't think I am right, look at what Kiplinger says:
-----
EV tax credit income limits for new and used EVs
Your modified adjusted gross income (MAGI) is used for the following income limits, which apply to qualifying new clean vehicles.

(MAGI, found on Line 11 of Form 1040, often determines your eligibility for various tax breaks and is generally your adjusted gross income (AGI) with certain deductions or income exclusion added.)

When claiming the EV credit, the IRS says that you can use the lesser of your MAGI in the year you take delivery of your EV or your MAGI from the year before you took delivery of the vehicle.

You won't qualify for the EV tax credit if you are single and your modified adjusted gross income exceeds $150,000.

The EV tax credit income limit for married couples filing jointly is $300,000.

And, if you file as head of household and make more than $225,000, you also won’t be able to claim the electric vehicle tax credit.

The EV credit income limit is $150,000 for all other filing statuses.


https://www.kiplinger.com/taxes/ev-tax-credit

 

[RickLightning]

Sigh...

You keep debating the income test, which we agree on.

If you transfer it to dealer, but have insufficient tax liability, they ignore that.

If you take it during filing, and have insufficient tax liabilty, you lose some or all of it.

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