Charging While Driving w/ Gas Generator in Bed (Range Extender for F-150 Lightning) - Testing

[ZSC100]

I admire your optimism, and please realize that I am a cranky old fart, so weigh that in any interpretation.

But it is worth considering that the Prius 38.5% figure is already only at one load and one rpm -- every where else, its efficiency is lower -- and in many operating conditions, far lower. (The same is true but more extreme for the Jetta diesel) The Prius engine load is all over the place: the range of loads is smaller than in a conventional old car, (which operates at 0% efficiency when idling in traffic if the battery is already charged) but the engine still spends much of its time lightly loaded, where efficiency is dismal.

In my little PHEV the generator operated mainly at very high load, or not at all, at least in my imagination. But in practice, in charging batteries, the load is not constant, because the charge acceptance rate tapers off as the battery becomes more charged. (Also, if the vehicle is moving, then the drive motors affect the load on the generator.) I built a prototype second engine, which I never installed, but was not expecting better than 30% average efficiency, given its 36% peak. The generator was directly driven by the engine without any belts, or reductions.

I wrote up a patent, but did not file it, for a combined cycle system that would use an engine to provide household electric needs, with the waste heat going into heating water for domestic use, supplementing heat pump heat, (warming ground source water for instance) etc. The patent write up made it all sound feasible.... and maybe it is. Someone younger than me can investigate.

But devising a combined cycle mobile system seems unlikely to produce any substantial overall efficiency gain. Many people have postulated increased overall efficiency for turbo engines -- seems to make sense -- but it does not pan out. I did not follow precisely what you meant by
>> There may also be some CO2 gas turbine combined cycle possibilities with the battery to accept the power as things wind down..<<

Re shift in regulations, I am no fan of polluting more rather than less, but would support exemptions for projects like yours... both for prototyping and for possible subsequent sales in limited numbers, such as 1000 units. In my little PHEV, the regs were for motorcycles, so it was less of a challenge to meet than for a four-wheeled project.

Random thought: The electric machines (DC or AC) in portable and semiportable generators tend to be low efficiency. You could do better with some of the high efficiency brushless motors available... or a repurposed Leaf or Tesla motor, etc. A 3 cylinder Daihatsu motor laid over on its side with remote oil supply would probably fit under a Lightning, if the battery pack were reduced for space.

Your doing good stuff. Carry on.

There's a lot of research in 2nd stage heat recovery using CO2 as a refrigerant to drive small turbine generators, condensing in a closed loop. Same with small modular fission reactors. I figure a micro turbine generator can recover heat this way in a vehicle, but without 50 plus mile per gallon targets/penalties for the ICE industry it will never happen. Gas is $2.09/gal in Tulsa right now; That makes an ICE F150 cheaper to drive road trips than the Lightning.

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[ZeusDriver]

Gas is $2.09/gal in Tulsa right now; That makes an ICE F150 cheaper to drive road trips than the Lightning.

Yes. I find that disturbing, in that it cannot help but set back development. There were a few years when Priuses were very hot sellers, and F150's were not, and the US industry was largely reactive rather than proactive. I was at a talk by Mike Jackson the CEO of Auto Nation (around 2009), in which he advocated for higher gas taxes to foster development of more fuel-efficient vehicles. He seemed like the real deal, in the sense that he was advocating for a policy that would reduce his income.

I wish the US auto industry had a longer term vision. I think China will lead in EVs, and leave the US manufacturers scrambling, just as they were when the Hondas and other Japanese brands were being introduced to this country, showing that cars could be very high quality, yet reasonably priced.

When "Quality is Job One" came out, I was working with Ford and bought an Escort so I could show up in Detroit in something other than a Honda. After having it for about a week, the front right brake caliper fell off. Hmmm.

 

[ZeusDriver]

I happened to receive an ad in my feed for a DC fast charger. $75,000. I ran some numbers and figured that an entity could get a two year payback while charging only 10 cents over the ordinary retail price of electricity. That entailed keeping it busy 10 hours per day, which is probably feasible in the right locations. (Certainly not in Dillon SC, where there is a Supercharger installation with 40 plugs, and I have never seen more than 4 in use.) An entrepreneurial type such as you should start your own network.

 

[ZSC100]

I happened to receive an ad in my feed for a DC fast charger. $75,000. I ran some numbers and figured that an entity could get a two year payback while charging only 10 cents over the ordinary retail price of electricity. That entailed keeping it busy 10 hours per day, which is probably feasible in the right locations. (Certainly not in Dillon SC, where there is a Supercharger installation with 40 plugs, and I have never seen more than 4 in use.) An entrepreneurial type such as you should start your own network.

Yea, problem is the charger alone cost 75k, it's another 75k just to install it, and that's if you can get the local power company to play nice. It's a shame we didn't standardize on 480VAC 3phase as the charging standard, all EVs can use that directly to charge with their drive units if wired correctly.

 

[NW Ontario Ford Lightning]

I have been monitoring the extra energy needed for winter trips, compared with these same routes from last summer. Even with the heat pump, and pre-conditioning on plug before departure, I am seeing 25-30% extra energy required in cold weather, and then there is the effect of snow on the roads - ie increase rolling resistance.
In summer on local Hwy I run 27-30kWh per hour drving about 65mph.
In cold weather this can easily jump to 35-40kWh.

With a 46.5 kWh auxillary pack in the bed, the 'charging while driving' would allow me to add energy at 12kWh per hour - and would supplement my 35-40 kWh per hour from the traction battery, effectively making winter travel range the same/better than summer. ie the net energy from the traction battery could be reduced from 40 to 28-30 from the input of the auxiary battery in the bed and the Charging while Driving plug.

Since I bought the SR, and live in a place where chargers are 60-100 miles appart this is of interest to me for winter, and even during summer would allow adding a pop up trailer or extra gear without significant impact on range. The truck has room for 93 kWh of my battery packs, if I am ok with losing all the bed space for a special trip into a remote lake, and back.

 

[hturnerfamily]

I just drove over 650+ miles to DELIVER two different CAMPERS... and never even gave it a second thought, in my '22 PRO SR, with over 64,000 miles...

I never thought about 'what if...' I had some type of engine or generator, or even an extra battery, to make it happen.... but, it did happen.
I never stressed about it, since I had charging options all along the way.
I never sat at a charging stop and cried because I didn't have a generator or engine.

I actually ENJOYED the journey. Smooth. Easy. Nice. Not a worry anywhere.

- 175 miles to pick up the first NEW 35' 7,500lb dual-axle CAMPER at the dealer.
- stopped beforehand at a EA station at a nearby mall to charge up to 80% before pickup
- 202 miles to the delivery point, stopping 3 times along the way. Yes, a meal while at Tesla, watched some of the ballgame while at a Chargepoint, and walked around for a while at another Chargepoint while snacking...
- arrived with a few SOC% in the 'tank', with a 240v 30a EVSE on a NEMA 14-50 to charge back up to 80% overnight

- then 202 miles BACK to that same dealer with the second 'Old' trade-in 25' 4,200lb dual-axle Camper
- stopped at the exact same chargers back along the way, with a supper meal at Wafflehouse at the last Tesla Supercharger location...delicious
- arrived at the dealer, for the drop-off, with about 20% SOC in the 'tank'
- then a quick 'stop-n-go' EA station at the mall to top off to make it the 75 miles back home
- arrived with a few SOC% left in the 'tank'

all is good.
I'll think about the eREV or EverDrive option, but, I doubt it....

 

[PJnc284]

With a 46.5 kWh auxillary pack in the bed, the 'charging while driving' would allow me to add energy at 12kWh per hour - and would supplement my 35-40 kWh per hour from the traction battery, effectively making winter travel range the same/better than summer. ie the net energy from the traction battery could be reduced from 40 to 28-30 from the input of the auxiary battery in the bed and the Charging while Driving plug.

Since I bought the SR, and live in a place where chargers are 60-100 miles appart this is of interest to me for winter, and even during summer would allow adding a pop up trailer or extra gear without significant impact on range. The truck has room for 93 kWh of my battery packs, if I am ok with losing all the bed space for a special trip into a remote lake, and back.

how are your packs made? 93kWh seems like it would be heavy. Will Prowess did a review on a Yixiang 30kWh DIY 48v pack and the darn thing was over 600lbs. They also have a 16kWh one but that's probably over 300 since the 314ah prismatic cells are listed as 12-13lbs each or about 200lbs total on the high end for 16.

For those not on Facebook, Martin is currently testing this beast along with an FCSP set to 80 amps.

 

[CAVUBob]

Another option for the poll should be:

-I don't want this, it takes up cargo capacity and defeats the purpose of having a truck.

Amen Brother! The OP’s posting seems slanted to me from the POV of someone trying to sell a product.

CAVUBob

 

[NW Ontario Ford Lightning]

how are your packs made? 93kWh seems like it would be heavy. Will Prowess did a review on a Yixiang 30kWh DIY 48v pack and the darn thing was over 600lbs. They also have a 16kWh one but that's probably over 300 since the 314ah prismatic cells are listed as 12-13lbs each or about 200lbs total on the high end for 16.

For those not on Facebook, Martin is currently testing this beast along with an FCSP set to 80 amps.

I built 12 packs so far - to store Solar, run my home (and my business next door) and charge the truck - when there is sun.
For low sunlight winter I have a utility connection that has only one use - powering EG4 chargverter AC-DC chargers to top up the ESS during low overnight rate 11pm-7am. EV's are hungry machines.

Yes, I use the 314Ah LFP cells, in 16s set up. Each pack is about 200 lbs and provides 15.5kWh of storage. Three packs plus the 12kW inverter breakers, fuses , case etc close to 800 lbs. I built this fit into a 'crate' that fits tight to the front of the bed, notched around the wheel housings, where I barely notice it. And before someone asks, yes I own a forklift, and the shop has an overhead gantry crane that runs down the length in line with the equipment door, so lifting such things is trivial in my case.
I started to build out my auxilary power crate before I saw what Martin was doing, my original plan was just to charge from the crate once I arrived at a distant northern lake, to allow power use while there fishing/camping, and most importantly - have sufficient energy for the return trip home, without the noise and mess of a generator - which spoils the whole atmosphere of being at a remote lake in the first place (to me at least). If there was charging (or electricity at all) along my route, I wouldn't bother with the auxilary pack or a generator, but that is the price of remote living.

I didn't build the crate to hold the extra 3 packs, for a total of 6, but I have drawn up a second rack that could hold those 3 extra packs safely, and wire them in with their own breakers and fuses and tie in point to the main crate. I like to tinker and create stuff, so this is just a fun experiement, since I own the packs and plan to expand with more for other 'fun' projects - ie I am converting a lawn tractor this winter to electric to see if I can make that work and it will also use a pack from the main solar ESS as the power supply.

 

[windydrew]

I am joining the testing phase using a 24kW generator since I have a 23 Lariat with dual chargers. My use case is DCFC on a daily basis charging to 100% and using most of my battery every work day. So this should reduce my cost per mile and save time on the clock. My bed is being replaced by a custom built service body with the generator in mind during the build, so will be one of a kind. Here's what I'm running currently with 1.0mi/kWh average consumption.

 

[ZSC100]

I am joining the testing phase using a 24kW generator since I have a 23 Lariat with dual chargers. My use case is DCFC on a daily basis charging to 100% and using most of my battery every work day. So this should reduce my cost per mile and save time on the clock. My bed is being replaced by a custom built service body with the generator in mind during the build, so will be one of a kind. Here's what I'm running currently with 1.0mi/kWh average consumption.

Yeah, that camper is equivalent to Martin hauling that lightning bed upside down with the lower fairings sticking up like devil horns

Are you saying with the utility trailer and that camper you get one 1.0eff on a daily basis with mixed driving?

 

[PJnc284]

So this should reduce my cost per mile and save time on the clock.

I suspect the cost/mile will be a wash to slightly more if it's similar to what Martin was getting and that's assuming gas prices don't go up. Could definitely save time but anything under 1mi/kWh isn't going to be life changing. Think I figured about 30-50 miles extra assuming 60mph and depending on if you're using the full battery or just 80-10%.

 

[windydrew]

Yeah, that camper is equivalent to Martin hauling that lightning bed upside down with the lower fairings sticking up like devil horns

Are you saying with the utility trailer and that camper you get one 1.0eff on a daily basis with mixed driving?

So far this winter, I'm getting 1.0mi/kWh average. Pulling the trailer is closer to 0.7mi/kWh.

 

[ZSC100]

So far this winter, I'm getting 1.0mi/kWh average. Pulling the trailer is closer to 0.7mi/kWh.

Your use case of a mix of around town and idling with heater and highway driving is a unique case where EverDrive may make a timesaving value where normally at these efficiencies people would say 18kW isn't worth it.

 

[windydrew]

Your use case of a mix of around town and idling with heater and highway driving is a unique case where EverDrive may make a timesaving value where normally at these efficiencies people would say 18kW isn't worth it.

I'd say 90% of the driving is highway, so I guess we'll see what comes of it.

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