Elevated HVB Module Variation (Solved post 26 & 49)

[ZSC100]

Can we do a buy back 3+ years into ownership??

No, for a current problem, but if you were out the truck because of service within your state's time you can retroactively ask for a buyback based on that experience. Also, assuming your state has a 30-day in service with no resolution clause (which most do). What likely ends up in most cases is that Ford will settle for an amount much less than what the buyback would cost them. But that amount is still usually very generous If you actually got the truck back eventually and are satisfied.

So just to clarify, If your state lemon laws are such. And you had a battery module replacement that resulted in your truck being in service greater than 30 days, within 24 months (or 12 in some states). You would gather your paperwork proving such and submit a buyback request based on the hardship this caused you. You will be systematically denied. Then you will have to file a case with the BBB in your state or a lemon lawyer which will take 6 months minimum for you to get a settlement offer. My total time in service for two battery modules and a recall was about 70days. After two buyback denials, then a year of fighting I got a settlement for $6K. By the time they would have done a buyback my truck had 120k mi, with an MSRP of $54k, That would have cost Ford at least $35k. So legally they got off super cheap and I got $6K. But I had to fight them for over a year. I took that 6K and purchased an entire salvage battery pack with only 15k I'm on it because I fully expected another module to fail. But, I now have 140k mi and this is still the best truck I have ever owned. My battery is sitting at 93.5% SoH and to me for all intents and purposes it still feels like a brand new truck.

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[bmwhitetx]

Minor update. Truck has been at dealer for almost two weeks still waiting on repair. As usual Dealer info is sparse ("waiting on part"). I called the BEV team and they said the part is back-ordered and shows no in-stock ETA.

Final update. Got the truck back today after 17 days in shop. Turns out the battery module was not on back-order and was in fact at the dealer earlier this week. The BEV team was given incorrect info according to a Ford insider.

They said they also did the TRM recall and the Parking Brake recall although I didn't think Parking Brake was available for 22-23's yet. Checking my modules they updated the PCM, SOBDMC and TRM. My PCM is NL3A-14C204-GSA. I'll buy another PTS subscription to verify unless someone else wants to .

They charged it to 100% successfully. Module variation is now a reasonable 0.8% and .01 volts.

 

[bmwhitetx]

Ok, one more interesting tidbit. It has been suggested in the early posts here that the battery pack will balance cells while charging from 99+ to 100%. That may be true, but the Workshop Manual also states that cell balancing occurs anytime the SOC is 15%+ and the vehicle has been off for 48 hours. The BECM will discharge cells that are high.

The balancing details are in Pinpoint Test AP:
The high voltage battery pack is consisted of multiple series-connected cells. To preserve battery life and insure the battery pack good performance, it is essential to minimize the deviations between individual cell State-Of-Charge (SOC). Cell balancing circuit, located inside BECM , is used to achieve the objective by closing the electric circuit to discharge the cells with high State-Of-Charge (SOC). Cell balancing occurs when the high voltage battery State-Of-Charge (SOC) is equal or greater than 15% and the ignition has been turned off for greater than 48 hours. When cell balancing circuit is stuck open or closed, the corresponding cells SOCs are higher or lower than the other cell SOCs, and the powertrain malfunction (wrench) indicator illuminates. The stop safely hazard (red triangle) warning indicator and MIL illuminates. For DTC's P0B24:00, P0B24:09, P0B24:1F, P0B24:21 and/or P0B24:22 electric motor propulsion will be limited reducing vehicle power.

 

[vvgogh]

Ok, one more interesting tidbit. It has been suggested in the early posts here that the battery pack will balance cells while charging from 99+ to 100%. That may be true, but the Workshop Manual also states that cell balancing occurs anytime the SOC is 15%+ and the vehicle has been off for 48 hours. The BECM will discharge cells that are high.

You have a graph in the first post with a low variation on 7 Dec. It was much higher in your next measurement dot datapoint (a month later?). What happened in the time between to your next dot? Did your truck balance the cells in the next month? Did you have 99-100% charges or leave it OFF for 48h+ to trigger the mid-charge rebalance?

 

[bmwhitetx]

You have a graph in the first post with a low variation on 7 Dec. It was much higher in your next measurement dot datapoint (a month later?). What happened in the time between to your next dot? Did your truck balance the cells in the next month? Did you have 99-100% charges or leave it OFF for 48h+ to trigger the mid-charge rebalance?

I think those slight variations under 1% are due to different SOC and then rounding. The voltage deviations are very small with just a few significant digits.

The last time I charged to 100% was May ‘25. The truck routinely sits for 48+ hours between starts. The increase in January of this year was due to the module going bad. It did not display an error or DTCs and the only symptom was it wouldn’t charge above 83-84%. I only charge to 85% so didn’t notice anything amiss.

It was only when I tried to charge to 100% that the issue presented itself and @GoodSam pointed out the SSM.

 

[ZSC100]

This is interesting the 48hr thing. I can't fathom why Ford would've done this and/or how no one has brought this to light yet. For most people I guess this never comes into play. For an ever day driver most people aren't leaving their trick idle (and not fully charged) for more than 48hrs at a time. Depending on if this is even real and was fully implemented could explain people's 12V issue on vehicles that sit unused. The BECM (which includes the BMS) operates on 12V, so after 48hrs does the truck wake up the DCDC while it balances? Does it attempt to balance even if the cells are already balanced within a threshold of %? So many questions here, that again don't really pertain to 90+% of owners? On the surface this seems like a terrible idea and implementation of balancing. It's not helping range, as balancing without charging only hurts range. This is just another example of how Ford doesn't really know how to build software for EVs

 

[PJnc284]

.This is just another example of how Ford doesn't really know how to build software for EVs

We shouldn't be shocked by anything they do.

 

[vvgogh]

The last time I charged to 100% was May ‘25. The truck routinely sits for 48+ hours between starts. The increase in January of this year was due to the module going bad. It did not display an error or DTCs and the only symptom was it wouldn’t charge above 83-84%. I only charge to 85% so didn’t notice anything amiss.

It was only when I tried to charge to 100% that the issue presented itself and @GoodSam pointed out the SSM.

This experience doesn't instill confidence in the truck's ability to reliably balance battery cells outside of the 99-100% cycle. Sorry it happened. Thanks for sharing.

 

[bmwhitetx]

This is interesting the 48hr thing. I can't fathom why Ford would've done this and/or how no one has brought this to light yet. For most people I guess this never comes into play. For an ever day driver most people aren't leaving their trick idle (and not fully charged) for more than 48hrs at a time. Depending on if this is even real and was fully implemented could explain people's 12V issue on vehicles that sit unused. The BECM (which includes the BMS) operates on 12V, so after 48hrs does the truck wake up the DCDC while it balances? Does it attempt to balance even if the cells are already balanced within a threshold of %? So many questions here, that again don't really pertain to 90+% of owners? On the surface this seems like a terrible idea and implementation of balancing. It's not helping range, as balancing without charging only hurts range. This is just another example of how Ford doesn't really know how to build software for EVs

Yes I found it odd that they balance by discharging the high cells by closing a circuit (presumably across a bleed resistor). But modules are “bad” when one cell goes below the threshold. So there are 95 high cells and the one lone low cell. Can’t imagine they discharge the 95.

Apparently the BECM is not capable of charging a single cell, just discharging. Makes be wonder how it can balance from 99-100 then.

 

[ZSC100]

Yes, until a Battery or BMS Engineer comes fwd and/or tears apart the BMS (PCB) of one of these we can only speculate. There are many different passive balancing hardware and software strategies. Every 8 cells could share a resistor and that resistor is passed/shunted across different cells for instance a crude explanation would be , 1sec on cell1, 1, sec on cell 2, 1.5 sec on cell 3, 0.5sec on cell 4, etc, all while charging or discharging. We should ask Alex with OoS Renew to take apart the BMS module inside that bad battery pack he has and photo both sides of the PCB in high resolution so we can put it out on the internet for review.

 

[PJnc284]

@ajbessinger Guessing you probably got rid of it during the move though.

 

[klossfam]

Don't want to hijack the thread but exploring the same issues with my 2022 Lariat ER with 80078 mi. I came back from a 10 day vacation and my newer 12V was dead. Revived it and noticed a low range reading (144 mi) at 80% SOC. I thought bad module of the 9 mods and actually good if happening before 100k mi.

I ran live data in Forscan and all appears well. Not sure what the 50 value is in Variation in capacity Between vs. the variation between pack SOC showing 0.56%. I attached the BECM tests I ran and not sure if I'm missing anything. No DTCs present. Any thoughts are appreciated.

 

[ZSC100]

Don't want to hijack the thread but exploring the same issues with my 2022 Lariat ER with 80078 mi. I came back from a 10 day vacation and my newer 12V was dead. Revived it and noticed a low range reading (144 mi) at 80% SOC. I thought bad module of the 9 mods and actually good if happening before 100k mi.

I ran live data in Forscan and all appears well. The variation between packs is showing 0.56%. I attached the BECM tests I ran and not sure if I'm missing anything. Any thoughts are appreciated.

You're probably fine, just charge your 12V. When the 12V goes dead weird things happen.

Why is your BECM 12V reading 142.00V?

 

[klossfam]

Thanks for the quick reply. I was wondering the same thing but I bet it is a Forscan glitch because 14.2V would be about right with the vehicle on for a live test.

 

[ZSC100]

Reduce your PID's in the scope function to only that one so there isn't any chance of mixup.

If still wrong, compare to the live reading at the bottom right of FORScan and see if it tracks.

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