Ford & SK On end joint US battery venture BlueOval SK

[GDN]

I think the Tesla comparisons aren't fair. Tesla was a brand new start-up with no legacy and no expectations from consumers. And, Telsa has a simple and small portfolio. They focus on one thing and one thing only: EVs for commuting.

Ford and GM and Stellantis are all in a different boat. These are century-old companies that have a reputation for building not only commuter vehicles but also work trucks, SUVs, sports cars, and everything in between. They got rich building ICE vehicles for decades and taylored their factories and processes to it. And then all of a sudden they got the EV bag thrown at them.

To me it's easy to see why there is a discrepancy between Tesla and its competitors. But, I also have ZERO interest in anything Tesla makes as it does not fit my needs or lifestyle.

Thanks for the reply, and I don't disagree, I just think because Ford and GM didn't know what they were doing, don't know what many of today's consumers want, how they want to remain stuck in their legacy ways, and the fact that maybe they are diversified, they've given EV's a really bad rap to the general public.

The fact that they are century old companies that refuse to reinvent themselves, I wonder who will be left here in 20 years? Or who wouldn't already be here if our government didn't bail them out.

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[The Weatherman]

I think the Tesla comparisons aren't fair. Tesla was a brand new start-up with no legacy and no expectations from consumers. And, Telsa has a simple and small portfolio. They focus on one thing and one thing only: EVs for commuting.

Ford and GM and Stellantis are all in a different boat. These are century-old companies that have a reputation for building not only commuter vehicles but also work trucks, SUVs, sports cars, and everything in between. They got rich building ICE vehicles for decades and taylored their factories and processes to it. And then all of a sudden they got the EV bag thrown at them.

To me it's easy to see why there is a discrepancy between Tesla and its competitors. But, I also have ZERO interest in anything Tesla makes as it does not fit my needs or lifestyle.

So, let me know when the /rant ends and I’ll see about turning off your ignore button.

 

[Lytning]

(My) # 1 rule of business: "Know your customers."

 

[Adventureboy]

Ford's F-150 Lightning sales fell 72% in November alone.

So, Ford Lightning production is shut down. They have none to sell..... There's that. Fully expected the drop. Restricting the supply will cause the demand to go up. When they start up production again, there will be demand. Smart move from a business perspective, given the slower-than-expected start.

 

[25StarWhiteLightning]

I would wager sales dropped in November because of the swell of demand in September and October clearing out all the vehicles tied to rebates. They either need to drop the price, add more features (range?) or expect a very low new normal EV volume. Used EVs are also a very good deal now which is putting big pressure on the new EV sales. Why pay $80k for a lightning when you get a 3 year old one for less than half price?

 

[Oafy44]

I wonder if / why Tesla wouldn’t be the “Apple” for legacy manufactures. It seems Elon is already over making cars and is into robotics / space/ robotics taxis. They already make more money on data and their charging infrastructure. Why doesn’t Tesla just develop the batteries / sell the autonomous to legacy OEMs and then just make their mass production robots taxis model E and Y - then whoever wants a cyber truck /s/X can still order. Other then the the S and Y- tesla really isn’t a threat to a truck / big suv offering. Feel feee to correct me- I could be looking at this incorrectly.

 

[Ventorum94]

Better company like who though?

CATL, for sure. Second choice, Panasonic.

 

[Ventorum94]

I think the Tesla comparisons aren't fair. Tesla was a brand new start-up with no legacy and no expectations from consumers. And, Telsa has a simple and small portfolio. They focus on one thing and one thing only: EVs for commuting.

Ford and GM and Stellantis are all in a different boat. These are century-old companies that have a reputation for building not only commuter vehicles but also work trucks, SUVs, sports cars, and everything in between. They got rich building ICE vehicles for decades and taylored their factories and processes to it. And then all of a sudden they got the EV bag thrown at them.

To me it's easy to see why there is a discrepancy between Tesla and its competitors. But, I also have ZERO interest in anything Tesla makes as it does not fit my needs or lifestyle.

I own a Lightning and a Tesla MY. My Lightning meets my needs for occasional hauling and is our go-to for comfortable highway cruising; but with FSD 14.2, a month or so ago (for 2023+ vehicles), I now have a car that drives itself, in confidence and greater safety than I can (because it sees everything in all directions at once). To me, this is as amazing as rocket boosters landing vertically on barges in the ocean. Autonomous driving is truly luxury and technology from a time-travel movie, and ascertains a winning future for Tesla. Range? Today, every Tesla has over 300mi range, my Lightning about 220mi. Lightning or Tesla, it’s quite enough, really, as I rarely drive more than 500mi in a day.

 

[GDN]

I own a Lightning and a Tesla MY. My Lightning meets my needs for occasional hauling and is our go-to for comfortable highway cruising; but with FSD 14.2, a month or so ago (for 2023+ vehicles), I now have a car that drives itself, in confidence and greater safety than I can (because it sees everything in all directions at once). To me, this is as amazing as rocket boosters landing vertically on barges in the ocean. Autonomous driving is truly luxury and technology from a time-travel movie, and ascertains a winning future for Tesla. Range? Today, every Tesla has over 300mi range, my Lightning about 220mi. Lightning or Tesla, it’s quite enough, really, as I rarely drive more than 500mi in a day.

We paid for a month of FSD on our Y. Is crazy good and amazing. I don't want to derail this thread - it deserves sharing and further discussion however, even at FSD version 12 in a '23 Y with HW3.

My concern is still the true longevity of the Trucks batteries, the module failures, the rates, and how long will they continue to fail. Will there ever be a time when you can say OK, my battery is probably good for 20 years and won't fail again.

Likewise for the horrible 12v battery management. No good deed goes unpunished. I replaced mine proactively a week ago. I've had to reboot the infotainment more this week to get CarPlay to connect. It had been in the garage since Wednesday without being driven, 2 days. Last night I get in and I get the basic dings and bells indicating the low 12v charge status. Then also realized the red tail gate light was on, on the dash. I stopped, pushed the tailgate button to see what it would do. It released the tailgate and it fell open. I had to manually close it. The motor picked up from there and it opened and closed correctly and the light went away. The red light and disconnect had to be from the 12v system though. It's just horrible electrical system management. You won't find this kind of poor engineering on a Tesla.

 

[MichaelCA]

Legacy auto is bogged down with the way they always did things.

 

[Grease Lightning]

So, Ford Lightning production is shut down. They have none to sell..... There's that.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but they have plenty to sell. There are 64 within 100 miles of me. So yeah they have enough inventory. The challenge is the price. For way to many years October 2023 to now, @Ford Motor Company had heavily incentivized the sales of the numbers they had, including reducing the cost of a Lariat to have the MSRP of $79,999.99 so more would qualify for the tax credit.

I bought mine prior to the incentive massacre, and less then a year later I could have bought my exact same truck for $5,000-$10,000 of MSRP plus the tax credit. So a $73,500 Lightning for say $$55,000-$60,000 out the door and there are hundred of post on this forum of people doing even better then that in 2024.

Sadly the market really was not there for the $70,000-$100,000 EV trucks that Ford, Chevy, and even Rivian thought there was to meet scale to truly be profitable. Most of us don’t daily tow, so range was less of an issue. Most of us don’t have each seat filled with people every day. So sadly a lot of us would have or could have considered a Ranger sized version of it would it have been in the $40,000-$50,000 range and had in the 250-275 mile range. That is the reality they are facing.

While I can only speak for myself, I would have rather had the Ranger sized version at this point, as I also have a M3 for when I want more in city driving and parking where the lightning is just too much. So I truly could have loved a smaller option if available when I made the decision 2.5 years ago.

 

[The Weatherman]

We paid for a month of FSD on our Y. Is crazy good and amazing. I don't want to derail this thread - it deserves sharing and further discussion however, even at FSD version 12 in a '23 Y with HW3.

My concern is still the true longevity of the Trucks batteries, the module failures, the rates, and how long will they continue to fail. Will there ever be a time when you can say OK, my battery is probably good for 20 years and won't fail again.

Likewise for the horrible 12v battery management. No good deed goes unpunished. I replaced mine proactively a week ago. I've had to reboot the infotainment more this week to get CarPlay to connect. It had been in the garage since Wednesday without being driven, 2 days. Last night I get in and I get the basic dings and bells indicating the low 12v charge status. Then also realized the red tail gate light was on, on the dash. I stopped, pushed the tailgate button to see what it would do. It released the tailgate and it fell open. I had to manually close it. The motor picked up from there and it opened and closed correctly and the light went away. The red light and disconnect had to be from the 12v system though. It's just horrible electrical system management. You won't find this kind of poor engineering on a Tesla.

But were you in garage and plugged into a level 2 charger? ABC really does make a difference in the stays of the 12v and the health of the HVB.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but they have plenty to sell. There are 64 within 100 miles of me. So yeah they have enough inventory. The challenge is the price. For way to many years October 2023 to now, @Ford Motor Company had heavily incentivized the sales of the numbers they had, including reducing the cost of a Lariat to have the MSRP of $79,999.99 so more would qualify for the tax credit.

I bought mine prior to the incentive massacre, and less then a year later I could have bought my exact same truck for $5,000-$10,000 of MSRP plus the tax credit. So a $73,500 Lightning for say $$55,000-$60,000 out the door and there are hundred of post on this forum of people doing even better then that in 2024.

Sadly the market really was not there for the $70,000-$100,000 EV trucks that Ford, Chevy, and even Rivian thought there was to meet scale to truly be profitable. Most of us don’t daily tow, so range was less of an issue. Most of us don’t have each seat filled with people every day. So sadly a lot of us would have or could have considered a Ranger sized version of it would it have been in the $40,000-$50,000 range and had in the 250-275 mile range. That is the reality they are facing.

While I can only speak for myself, I would have rather had the Ranger sized version at this point, as I also have a M3 for when I want more in city driving and parking where the lightning is just too much. So I truly could have loved a smaller option if available when I made the decision 2.5 years ago.

I hoping for a Maverick sized E-truck. I had two of them in 2021, but it was pretty clear they weren’t going to electrify it anytime soon.

I totally agree with your assessment.

 

[WXman]

I own a Lightning and a Tesla MY. My Lightning meets my needs for occasional hauling and is our go-to for comfortable highway cruising; but with FSD 14.2, a month or so ago (for 2023+ vehicles), I now have a car that drives itself, in confidence and greater safety than I can (because it sees everything in all directions at once). To me, this is as amazing as rocket boosters landing vertically on barges in the ocean. Autonomous driving is truly luxury and technology from a time-travel movie, and ascertains a winning future for Tesla. Range? Today, every Tesla has over 300mi range, my Lightning about 220mi. Lightning or Tesla, it’s quite enough, really, as I rarely drive more than 500mi in a day.

Technology will eventually get there, perhaps, but I personally do not trust fully autonomous driving over a sane human who is alert behind the wheel. For a textbook example of why, all we have to do is turn to the recent news of all the Waymo cars that have been video recorded driving around stopped school busses, endangering the lives of children. Waymo says they have "updated the software to correct the problem" but many of the videos have been of cars with the updated software. It is IMPOSSIBLE for machines to have the full scope of awareness than a human has and I will debate anyone on that anytime. A fully autonomous vehicle may do very well in 99% of situations, but one day that 1% is going to rear its ugly head. We have had numerous discussions at work about how to handle these autonomous cars on roadways in the future, including the logistics of insurance.

 

[Grease Lightning]

It is IMPOSSIBLE for machines to have the full scope of awareness than a human has and I will debate anyone on that anytime.

Not to mention the legal liability for “failure to perform the duties”…. Until every law is rewritten to not allow someone to sue for pain and suffering, loss of income, or Emotional Damage (enter that voice), you are asking for a “Biggly Huuugggee” (enter the Orange Guy’s voice or Alec Baldwin) payday. Cause most juries in the US will place some blame on you as the driver in one of those crashes. Look at the famous one that pointed blame at Tesla, blame and liability was still pointed at the driver.

While a nice gimmick and fun, I would never use it in the city or a congested roadway and definitely wouldn’t pay the delusional price Elon Dork has valued it, especially for HW3 cars. For HW3 cars they should either just enable it for free with the update they are working on or a small fee. We have been waiting and forgot. I would happily sign away my potential class action status for the true “Autopilot” FSD is on HW3 cars.

I do hope some of the features creep out of FSD and moves to Autopilot, even if I have to pay a small fee, such as summon. In small lots, I would love that for that time the parked too close to get in.

 

[Ventorum94]

…It is IMPOSSIBLE for machines to have the full scope of awareness than a human has and I will debate anyone on that anytime. A fully autonomous vehicle may do very well in 99% of situations, but one day that 1% is going to rear its ugly head. We have had numerous discussions at work about how to handle these autonomous cars on roadways in the future, including the logistics of insurance.

In your estimation, if a fully autonomous vehicle does very well in 99% of situations, what % of situations does a non-autonomous driver with a cellphone, or a bad temper, or three beers downed do very well in?

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