Installing a heat pump

[Electric_hillbilly]

You make a good a point, Temps are not usually that extreme over here, going down there is no issues, mileage is great. Coming back up the hill different story. But I'm not towing/hauling so I should be good.

I haven't installed the pro charger yet, so I've never gone pass 91%. I will feel better once I can get that extra charge

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[Txxthie]

I would like to know outside the conditions I listed what are the other conditions you are referring to. I am agreeing it is beneficial when the conditions are met. It depends on your use case scenario. When you indicate extreme temps are not the norm for the majority of the country, you are actually saying heat pump is not needed for the majority of the country since heat pumps make the difference when you actually live in those areas. A heat pump is not going to make a noticeable difference for example for someone that lives in Florida. I live in the DC area, I owned a model 3 without a HP for 2 years and then upgraded to a Model Y 2,5 years ago with a HP (I still own this vehicle) and now I have been driving a 22 Pro for about a year and I went through the last DC winter with this vehicle. From my personal experience, if I drive short distances without pre-condition I don't see a noticeable difference in losses between my model 3, model y and lightning in winter time driving. The most noticeable difference I saw was the winter time long distance travel between my model 3 and my model Y. HP did its job and kept the cabin toasty without using resistive heating.

The video I have referenced 2x explains the current generation of Tesla’s HP. Have you watched it, or are you basing your opinion on your own experience? It’s not whether they can produce heat. It’s the efficiency in doing it. A resistive heater is better in producing heat, but it is essentially a hair dryer. It’s a carryover from ice which it’s use/draw didn’t effect anything. With a BEV a resistive heater is a huge energy draw and killer of efficiency. Watch the video to find out how much. ?

I also had a 2018 TM3 Dual motor without a HP. It was not very efficient when using heat about 325 Wh/mile.

Conditions that call for heat vary by individual. There are a lot of people that live NE of you and they need heat right now.
My temps today in CT

 

[vsansal]

The video I have referenced 2x explains the current generation of Tesla’s HP. Have you watched it, or are you basing your opinion on your own experience? It’s not whether they can produce heat. It’s the efficiency in doing it. A resistive heater is better in producing heat, but it is essentially a hair dryer. It’s a carryover from ice and its power usage wasn’t as noticeable. With a BEV a resistive heater is a huge energy draw and killer of efficiency. The goal is to produce a more efficient electric vehicle is it not?

I also had a 2018 TM3 Dual motor without a HP. It was not very efficient when using heat about 325 Wh/mile.

Conditions that call for heat vary by individual. There are a lot of people that live NE of you and they need heat right now.
My temps today in CT

I did watch that video and I also base it on my personal experience as well. I don't argue HP is less efficient, on the contrary I am saying it is more efficient when certain conditions are met. What I am saying is, with my day to day situation, I am not seeing much of a difference between the two. You said, your M3 consumption was 325 Wh/mile without HP, can you tell me if you tried under same conditions a vehicle with HP? If so what was your consumption? If your daily drive consist of uninterrupted longer drives, HP is more efficient, for shorter trips the consumption end up being about the same in my experience. Instead of using energy for resistive heating, it needs to use energy to heat up the front motor I believe on the model Y, so the HP can pump that heat to the cabin on the shorter drives or if the vehicle is cold soaked outside. I still believe all EVs should include HP and it would be beneficial under certain conditions but I wouldn't trade my 22 pro for a 24 model because it has an HP module is what I am saying.

 

[Txxthie]

I did watch that video and I also base it on my personal experience as well. I don't argue HP is less efficient, on the contrary I am saying it is more efficient when certain conditions are met. What I am saying is, with my day to day situation, I am not seeing much of a difference between the two. You said, your M3 consumption was 325 Wh/mile without HP, can you tell me if you tried under same conditions a vehicle with HP? If so what was your consumption? If your daily drive consist of uninterrupted longer drives, HP is more efficient, for shorter trips the consumption end up being about the same in my experience. Instead of using energy for resistive heating, it needs to use energy to heat up the front motor I believe on the model Y, so the HP can pump that heat to the cabin on the shorter drives or if the vehicle is cold soaked outside. I still believe all EVs should include HP and it would be beneficial under certain conditions but I wouldn't trade my 22 pro for a 24 model because it has an HP module is what I am saying.

I have a 2022 TM3 LFP (Gen 2 HP) with 15K miles currently (purchased new). My gf drives it 60 miles a day (60% highway 40% city) I see a 10% hit (4.9 to 4.4) when using the heat vs Lightning which is 20% (2.3 to 1.7). Another post in this thread shows the same 10% draw with the newer Tesla HP.

My ideal Lightning:
HP, LFP(100% charging), DC preconditioning (non routing based), decoupler (similar to eGMP vehicles), and better aerodynamics. The Lightning very light for a BEV truck, Ford got that right!

 

[Kev12345]

Maybe ford will bump up the battery capacities for ‘24 as well. This combined with a heat pump would be a welcome improvement!

 

[vsansal]

I have a 2022 TM3 LFP (Gen 2 HP) with 15K miles currently (purchased new). My gf drives it 60 miles a day (60% highway 40% city) I see a 10% hit (4.9 to 4.4) when using the heat vs Lightning which is 20% (2.3 to 1.7). Another post in this thread shows the same 10% draw with the newer Tesla HP.

My ideal Lightning:
HP, LFP(100% charging), DC preconditioning (non routing based), decoupler (similar to eGMP vehicles), and better aerodynamics. The Lightning very light for a BEV truck, Ford got that right!

That makes sense on a 60 mile commute. My commute is around 5 miles each way totaling 10 miles. I don't see any significant difference in consumption between my Model 3 w/o HP and Model Y w HP. My lightning also seems to get the same amount of hit like you mentioned around 20% on the same commute. The biggest difference I actually notice is using the seat heaters I have in my model Y vs 22 pro doesn't have one. I believe that's a more significant improvement compared to having a HP or not in my case. I don't need that much heat on my model Y if I am using the seat heaters.

 

[Txxthie]

That makes sense on a 60 mile commute. My commute is around 5 miles each way totaling 10 miles. I don't see any significant difference in consumption between my Model 3 w/o HP and Model Y w HP. My lightning also seems to get the same amount of hit like you mentioned around 20% on the same commute. The biggest difference I actually notice is using the seat heaters I have in my model Y vs 22 pro doesn't have one. I believe that's a more significant improvement compared to having a HP or not in my case. I don't need that much heat on my model Y if I am using the seat heaters.

I couldn’t live without the heated seats in my Pro. IMHO: Manufacturers should not make any EV’s without heated seats or heated steering wheel. They can also provide other ways to heat the cabin and keep the windows clear. Toyota’s radiant heater on the bZ4X seems like a good idea and how about heated windshields or areas near the wipers?

 

[Yellow Buddy]

I couldn’t live without the heated seats in my Pro. IMHO: Manufacturers should not make any EV’s without heated seats or heated steering wheel. They can also provide other ways to heat the cabin and keep the windows clear. Toyota’s radiant heater on the bZ4X seems like a good idea and how about heated windshields or areas near the wipers?

Speaking of which, jumped into my truck this AM with temps under 30F.

I was smart enough to precondition the truck so when I jumped in, it was toasty warm. I snuggled my tushy into the warm seat and put my left hand on the warm wheel, reached to shift and…shifter is ice cold. Seems like a major oversight. Time to sell the truck.

 

[Hammick]

Heck yes, it gets so cold we have to wear jackets! (in the morning and evening, anyway)

Most people in Florida wear jackets when its 90 degrees out

 

[Txxthie]

Speaking of which, jumped into my truck this AM with temps under 30F.

I was smart enough to precondition the truck so when I jumped in, it was toasty warm. I snuggled my tushy into the warm seat and put my left hand on the warm wheel, reached to shift and…shifter is ice cold. Seems like a major oversight. Time to sell the truck.

Jokes aside, Is that carryover shifter really necessary in the Lightning? Why do we need to keep bringing the entire legacy supply chain along into BEV’s?
If legacy wants to make a profit with EVs they must start designing them using 1st principles. Create software defined vehicles using zonal centralized computing. Develop it all with digital twins.

John McElroy (Autoline) has been preaching this for years. His latest video on this topic was on the YT channel Batteries Included Podcast

 

[Jseis]

I roll about 90 miles a day on US101 in SW Wa. Mild weather and rural roads means in 9200 miles since late June I’m averaging 2.5 mi/KW. My “worst“ climate use might be 5% and that’s mostly to keep glass from fogging.

Headwinds really impact Mi/KWh but tends to balance out as summer headwinds are NW and winter headwinds are SW. A heat pump would modestly impact range though in my daily commute I’d never be impacted at all. As weather gets into mid 30’s here on the coast it’d likely have a noticeable impact in the morning a few days to week or so per month in winter. It’ll be interesting to hear Lightning owners results. Biggest gains will ultimately-likely be aero w/T3.

 

[Yellow Buddy]

Jokes aside, Is that carryover shifter really necessary in the Lightning? Why do we need to keep bringing the entire legacy supply chain along into BEV’s?
If legacy wants to make a profit with EVs they must start designing them using 1st principles. Create software defined vehicles using zonal centralized computing. Develop it all with digital twins.

John McElroy (Autoline) has been preaching this for years. His latest video on this topic was on the YT channel Batteries Included Podcast

Necessary? No, but I can appreciate it as a transition for anyone who's not coming from a Tesla. I'm sure there's an element of - let's spend the $10 extra to keep the current F-150 customers.

Personally I prefer a column shifter whether that's on a ICE vehicle or the older Tesla's or the Rivian. I haven't used but I wouldn't want to have my shifting buttons on screen.

 

[RickLightning]

This ^^^

 

[Txxthie]

Necessary? No, but I can appreciate it as a transition for anyone who's not coming from a Tesla. I'm sure there's an element of - let's spend the $10 extra to keep the current F-150 customers.

Personally I prefer a column shifter whether that's on a ICE vehicle or the older Tesla's or the Rivian. I haven't used but I wouldn't want to have my shifting buttons on screen.

Tesla figured out how to offset the exorbitant costs of the battery and scale production to not lose a ton of money. Ford was incorrect to "transition" customers and its BEV sales numbers and losses back that up. The current generation of Ford EV's will end up being the best built, but it is not a sustainable business model and will not scale. Future Ford BEV's will look more like Tesla's and have less parts, amenities, and options. Battery costs don't seem to be decreasing anytime soon. Toyota was correct to sit out this generation of EV's.

 

[Yellow Buddy]

Tesla figured out how to offset the exorbitant costs of the battery and scale production to not lose a ton of money. Ford was incorrect to "transition" customers and its BEV sales numbers and losses back that up. The current generation of Ford EV's will end up being the best built, but it is not a sustainable business model and will not scale. Future Ford BEV's will look more like Tesla's and have less parts, amenities, and options. Battery costs don't seem to be decreasing anytime soon. Toyota was correct to sit out this generation of EV's.

Tesla got here with transition…

Their first BEV also had a shifter, it had a transmission. Their second vehicle offered 7 row seats in an effort to avoid building an SUV, which it ultimately had to do to help with transition. The 2 screens..transition. Resistive heat, recall seats, leather, alcantra, they were all part of Teslas transition from an unprofitable company to where it is today.

They’ve got a tremendous head start there. Where Tesla has learned and iterated with their vehicles, Ford is still early on. Personally, I equate the current gen Ford BEVs with the 1st gen Model S - which also weren’t profitable..

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