Asking for advice on a pull through layout.

[Jseis]

This seems like a big opportunity.. have you looked into any potential assistance/rebates/grants for the DCFC? NEVI is/was supposed to take care of these gaps, if it still exists at the end of the day.

Those funds went to the urban fringe I-5 corridor. We ranked 4th of 12. The first 3 were funded (8 years ago ). I just got pissed and funded it the most inexpensive way I could manage.

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[CD4TNF]

Yes two pull through lanes accessible from either side of #1. and #2. The 70’ foot length is greater than the 65’ legal limit of RV or truck towing a boat-or trailer-5th wheel. If a lane is open they can pull forward either side due to the 23’ long cord as each charger is dual port thus long units can charge simultaneously. We see this as a bridge until we acquire more land and update the site roads. This a direct off state highway access with room for longer rigs to maneuver.

The infrastructure for this $$$ cost is modest but DCFC is near 10X given increases transformer & power needs. As the site will eventually have more workers and is adjacent to a government office building we see local & general public accessing it morning, noon, early-mid afternoon and including travelers. Are well off the interstate highway system. 8 years ago this was noticed as a black hole in charging but nothing has encouraged any charging innovation-installations so we just are doing it. .

I hear you on the extraordinary 10X cost for DC chargers. That's why I'm pitching Ionna shoulder the cost. Ionna is bankrolled by 7 auto manufacturers. Have them pay for the transformers and chargers and plan the power needs. Recommend filling out the form and seeing what they have to say.

https://www.ionna.com/rechargeries/host-inquiry/

Agreed, we are at the stage where private businesses are expected to step up to the plate of installing charging infrastructure.

I admit I know and thought very little about installing chargers. You clearly have. And have spent your money on plans. I'm not disrespecting your effort and costs. I support you making any kind of charging infrastructure. You clearly have a passion and dream. I look forward to patronizing your businesses and enjoying that part of the coast when the chargers are up and running.

 

[hturnerfamily]

so, when it comes to us 'travelers', unfortunately, No... you'll not see us there.

Now, I see your 'idea' that we can somehow get '50 miles' per hour of charging, there, but, I'm not sure where you come up with those numbers = EVERY EV is different when it comes to 'miles per kwh of charge'... no two are alike, and the larger the battery, really, the much longer it would take to get that range, ESPECIALLY when towing - towing will typically cut range in half.

Most of us 'travelers' don't consider Level2 charging, for any reason, when traveling - it's just not an optimistic option since traveling does not consider sitting somewhere for multiple hours just to get to the 'next' DCFC ... sure, we've all probably 'had' to do something like this on a VERY rare basis, but it was certainly not intentional - it was a stop of 'last resort'.

So, just to give you insight: unless these units can allow for overnight long-term parking, and it's convenient for the driver, with food, bathroom, and maybe even sleeping options VERY nearby, it will be very difficult for most anyone to consider them. A few locals using this infrequently will not warrant much of any payback.


DCFC is MUCH different. Traveling requires it. It is not an option. You garner MUCH more usage and leverage MUCH higher rates of charge, and fees, and make up the difference much faster, and for a longer runway of profits. Profits may not be your end goal, but it HAS to be part of the equation unless you are just a local government looking to 'support' EVs...

in the end, NO EV owner, whether towing or not, is going to optimistically consider any Level2 charging on ANY normal basis... they just probably won't consider coming into the area, or will avoid it due to no DCFC options. Even a slower 50kwh DCFC would be considered, but, no, realistically, not Level2... it's just too slow, no matter what non-EV owners may think they understand.

Just to give you some reasonings, if you are not an EV 'traveler':
A) One local city's recreation department ball fields had several locations where they installed Chargepoint Level2 units, with a fee. Nice to have the option, but, when it comes to using them, well, that is not the panacea non-EV owners might assume. They are in use by someone else, so, well, that means you can't use it. The vehicle parked there and plugged in has no one in sight. You have no idea what their vehicle's goal of charging is, or when the owner will ever be back... it might even be a local using it as their 'home' charger. Who knows. Another unit somewhere else is available, when you arrive, and yet, for some reason, you can't get it to activate. The unit is just not 'working'. Sad. These units get very, very little maintenance, and the local city's employee and those responsible don't really know much about them, or, see them all the time and just don't know, or care.
A few other units were located closer to 'downtown', for bathroom and food convenience, and, well, some local office employees would use them as their own 'home' charger, too... while in the office, at work, and oblivious to 'travelers' who might really need them more urgently. Sad. Sure, if the local city wants to install them for local use, then it's working. If the idea was to support 'all' EV drivers, though, it was not as successful.

 

[Jseis]

Your advice appears to be “Spend more money and I’ll use it”. The traveling public is incidental and providing such service is easy because we have the space. Of the workforce at the site, there are at least four BEV owners. The nearby workforce likely adds two-three more. If our use is local so be it as that’s how gas stations evolved. Many stations served both local and traveling public. As time evolved those stations disappeared after 50 years replaced by a few, very few. a few serving many. our community isn’t there yet, I refuse to sit on my hands and do nothing.

I’ve used enough DCFCs to know they are evolving. It would be so easy to not design in pull throughs. But for moving pieces around we made it easy to serve any sized vehicle. Inherent flexibility. Charging stations of any type are certainly are not mainstream in rural U.S. We are just one piece of a puzzle yet to be solved. It could be another ten years before I see a DCFC here or within 40 miles But we will be ready to continue to evolve. We all know this. The two 50 unit RV parks we will be upscaling power to will have enough juice to serve every site as an L2 site. Perfect for overnight RV travelers. Building the future is hard f’ing work.

 

[RickLightning]

As to how much charge a vehicle can get in an hour, most EVs take 48amps max, including 2024+ Lightnings (except for some fleet vehicles).

What will you do to prevent a worker at one of the businesses there from hogging it all day at that cheap price? Will you have a fee for plugged in but not charging?

 

[cblackride]

Personally, I would never stop to use a level 2 charger while traveling (unless I couldn't make it to a DCFC). The only time I use level 2 chargers is when they are free, and/or when they are located at a pre-determined destination.

 

[RickLightning]

Personally, I would never stop to use a level 2 charger while traveling (unless I couldn't make it to a DCFC). The only time I use level 2 chargers is when they are free, and/or when they are located at a pre-determined destination.

Exactly.

Most of our stops are to charge and maybe eat (at vehicle, brought with us). We have of course stopped at places for a meal, or beer (brewery), and IF there is a free charger, or a charger with costs that are comparable to what we're experiencing on the road, we take advantage.

For example, we went to the von Trapp Brewing & Bierhall in Vermont while there skiing. At the time, it was free for one hour, then there was a fee per hour. I moved at 55 minutes. Now it's 20 cents per kWh with $1 session fee, and $1 per hour additional at 4 hours. So for 2 hours of charging at 6kW per hour, you're paying 28.3 cents per kWh. If you only charge for 1 hour, you're paying 36.7 cents. I would probably pass on both, if I had free hotel charging.

I remember going to Tulip Festival in Holland, MI with the Mach-E. Looked on PlugShare, and found free EV level 2 combined with free parking, so we took advantage of that given our multi-hour stay.

 

[Grumpy2]

Our Lightning doesn't have double chargers, so it isn't worth the trouble to plug-in to a 240 v charger with our Pro unless it is "free" or we are going to be parked there for 2+ hours.

 

[MotoGary]

@Jeis: First off, I applaud your determination to make this happen! I'm sure many locals and other BEV travelers will benefit from your initiative.

If I'm understanding this correctly, the question isn't what category of charger to install. Based on cost and other limiting factors, they're going to be Level 2 chargers. Correct?

It also sounds like the decision has already been made to do a pull-through configuration. You have the space, so why not? Makes sense.

So in the end, It sounds like you're simply looking for any suggestions to fine-tune the initial layout of your planned Level 2 pull-through charging station. Is that correct?

I don't have any direct experience with towing and charging, but given the limitations and variables that you're working with, your design seems reasonable to me. I'm sure there others here who can give some advice on the design based on their real-world experience.

As the quote goes: "Don't let perfect be the enemy of good". Just go for it! Good luck and keep us posted.

 

[CD4TNF]

To clarify if I'm understanding correctly. The focus is workplace charging.


I think a lot of us, including me, are focusing too much on the traveler use case.


OP states there is 4ish EV owners already at the worksite. Absolutely that's a great thing to provide workplace charging. Make it easy and convenient for folks to charge up no matter where they are, including the workplace.


One thing that would annoy me as an employee. Having to move the EV/truck in the middle of the workday. If there was a time limit, a 10 hr period would give enough time to get to work early and leave a little later.


Focusing the discussion around the benefits of workplace charging and the site layout is a more appropriate lens to view this project.

 

[Lytning]

Your advice appears to be “Spend more money and I’ll use it”. The traveling public is incidental and providing such service is easy because we have the space. Of the workforce at the site, there are at least four BEV owners. The nearby workforce likely adds two-three more. If our use is local so be it as that’s how gas stations evolved. Many stations served both local and traveling public. As time evolved those stations disappeared after 50 years replaced by a few, very few. a few serving many. our community isn’t there yet, I refuse to sit on my hands and do nothing.

I’ve used enough DCFCs to know they are evolving. It would be so easy to not design in pull throughs. But for moving pieces around we made it easy to serve any sized vehicle. Inherent flexibility. Charging stations of any type are certainly are not mainstream in rural U.S. We are just one piece of a puzzle yet to be solved. It could be another ten years before I see a DCFC here or within 40 miles But we will be ready to continue to evolve. We all know this. The two 50 unit RV parks we will be upscaling power to will have enough juice to serve every site as an L2 site. Perfect for overnight RV travelers. Building the future is hard f’ing work.

Just remember ... you asked for comments.
Consider the comments, adjust as desired, and go for it!

 

[Newton]

You can avoid the utility costs by installing a battery buffered DC fast charger - it is perfect for this application. It charges its internal battery at a slower, more reasonable amperage and gives the occasional visitor a nice, quick charge. Shell recharge was using this approach but they seem to have gotten out of the game. It is not so good for high traffic areas because it is frustrating to arrive just after somebody has depleted the battery but would work great in lesser trafficked areas.

 

[Jseis]

Think it

A pull through doesn’t seem necessary for your site with L2s, unless…are you allowing overnight parking?

If so, it would be a good mid-stop with an RV in tow. If not, I find it hard to justify stopping here without a DCFC. With a trailer in tow, I could get 25 miles of range during lunch…or I can stop somewhere else with DCFC and get 100+. It would be hard to justify

Think of it as laying future groundwork for DCFC. We are doing very inexpensively and that’s sort of a real world test save the “must charge fast set”. I’m really curious about the separation and use by future EV trailer towers. If it works, then we might attract a EV site investor, relocate these to the better workforce location. It’s relatively inexpensive considering a market study would be $25K-$30K.

 

[Jseis]

You can avoid the utility costs by installing a battery buffered DC fast charger - it is perfect for this application. It charges its internal battery at a slower, more reasonable amperage and gives the occasional visitor a nice, quick charge. Shell recharge was using this approach but they seem to have gotten out of the game. It is not so good for high traffic areas because it is frustrating to arrive just after somebody has depleted the battery but would work great in lesser trafficked areas.

I’ve been intrigued by those. As noted, this could inexpensively prove an alignment concept & 5-10 years we swap it out.

 

[Jseis]

As to how much charge a vehicle can get in an hour, most EVs take 48amps max, including 2024+ Lightnings (except for some fleet vehicles).

What will you do to prevent a worker at one of the businesses there from hogging it all day at that cheap price? Will you have a fee for plugged in but not charging?

That is what we are curious on. If that happens L2’s elsewhere are a very cost effective solution. As noted if this alignment pattern works, then it’s ripe for relocating and putting in DCFC with one exception.. $$$. Only real downside is takes capitalization tough to afford unless investment by others.

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