Charging error (All 5 segments turn RED) HVB Module failure

[Traconesu]

I think you're right in that sweet spot for them to start happening. 5-25k miles it feels like

I don't look forward to this.

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[Firn]

I agree, my truck is still in the shop getting 3 modules replaced. I wish they would have replaces all 9 because I'm sure it's going to have more module failures. I only use my truck locally and normally charge it to 85% regardless of their warnings of 80%. I've only DC charged a couple of times but it was a mannequin so during the 1st 6 months the dealer was using it as a demo so I don't know how it was charged or driven. I'm sure all the test drivers ran it really hard.

How it was driven will have nothing to do with it. This is manufacturing issues, or engineering issues, not driver issues. How you drive it and how you charge may have an affect on the amount of degredation you have at 100,000 miles, but it won't be the cause of these issues

 

[chl]

I agree, my truck is still in the shop getting 3 modules replaced. I wish they would have replaces all 9 because I'm sure it's going to have more module failures. I only use my truck locally and normally charge it to 85% regardless of their warnings of 80%. I've only DC charged a couple of times but it was a mannequin so during the 1st 6 months the dealer was using it as a demo so I don't know how it was charged or driven. I'm sure all the test drivers ran it really hard.

Glad for the warranties, sorry for the hassle.
I never had any problems with the 2012 Leaf battery - except it was small I guess. But I live in a temperate climate - folks in Az had early battery degradation from heat - an air cooled design didn't cut it there.
The Lightning battery module problems seem to be a manufacturing issue.
Especially with the 22's it seems.

Good luck with it.

 

[chl]

How it was driven will have nothing to do with it. This is manufacturing issues, or engineering issues, not driver issues. How you drive it and how you charge may have an affect on the amount of degredation you have at 100,000 miles, but it won't be the cause of these issues

However, sometimes heat stress does cause these or other defects (design manufacturing or assembly) to show up, hence the advice from Ford not to charge over 80% on the 1200 or so "misaligned battery" trucks for example.

Sometimes it is age as well, or number of charge cycles.

It's why we get long (relatively) warranties with EVs.

Extended warranty on the battery would be a good thing too.

 

[Traconesu]

Glad for the warranties, sorry for the hassle.
I never had any problems with the 2012 Leaf battery - except it was small I guess. But I live in a temperate climate - folks in Az had early battery degradation from heat - an air cooled design didn't cut it there.
The Lightning battery module problems seem to be a manufacturing issue.
Especially with the 22's it seems.

Good luck with it.

Thank you. It's really hard to say what fords battery problems are caused by.
I'm assuming the cells were never properly balanced prior to the modules assembly, but that's just a guess on my part. That process takes a lot of time and ford was really rushing to get these on the street. And just didn't take the time to get all the cells as equal to each other as possible.

 

[Traconesu]

Thank you. It's really hard to say what fords battery problems are caused by.
I'm assuming the cells were never properly balanced prior to the modules assembly, but that's just a guess on my part. That process takes a lot of time and ford was really rushing to get these on the street. And just didn't take the time to get all the cells as equal to each other as possible.

Other than a small battery and being air cooled those leafs are fine little cars for around town driving. My friend uses his on his news paper routes and just loves them.

 

[Traconesu]

It seems to me the battery module failures todate are due to two general quality control issues during original pouch fabrication or during module assembly, not on how the trucks are being charged and used. I am not sure a scanner will help on either QC issue.

The current fire safety recall seems to be a module assembly quality control failure when they reference swelling and tabs shorting out. "We discovered that certain batteries were not built to the manufacturing specifications resulting in a misalignment of the electrodes ..." This sounds like a Ford QC issue. But if it is, why are we waiting on parts to solve this since modules do not seem to be in short supply now ??

There are modules being replaced regularly due to the other QC failure:

The subject of this forum issue centered on 2022-2023 models may be the result of a QC failure of spotting the pouch cells with lower voltage potential before inserting them into the module. I believe the only way of finding these poorer pouches is waiting for the BCM to send out the notice of a low energy pouch. To me this sounds like a SK and Ford shared issue.

I also believe the BCM protects the other modules when one or more have a failure condition.

It is so good that Ford used a repairable battery design. The structural battery design must have a system to drop out strings when cells go out of spec which would effect range without chance of repair.

I realize it would be expensive to replace all 9 modules at once but I believe it would be cheaper for ford to do that than paying dealers the extra costs of dropping the battery, disassembling and replacing individual modules when they know the chance of the remaining modules will also fail prior to their warranty. Not to mention the saftey factor of avoiding their customers vehicles catching on fire and possibly injuring human lives while waiting on the remaining modules to fail.

 

[Traconesu]

How it was driven will have nothing to do with it. This is manufacturing issues, or engineering issues, not driver issues. How you drive it and how you charge may have an affect on the amount of degredation you have at 100,000 miles, but it won't be the cause of these issues

I do believe this was a QC issue on module assembly, but I also believe pushing 150 kw into the battery during DC charging versus charging with 7.2 kwh or even with the 19.2 kwh ford charge would also have different effects on these unbalanced cells.
That wouldn't have been an issue had the cells in the modules been properly matched and balance. Just my opinion. Right or wrong, it's us consumers that have to be without our trucks for their QC issues. Thank God for warranties at least we only have to pay with time without our trucks.

 

[Traconesu]

Glad for the warranties, sorry for the hassle.
I never had any problems with the 2012 Leaf battery - except it was small I guess. But I live in a temperate climate - folks in Az had early battery degradation from heat - an air cooled design didn't cut it there.
The Lightning battery module problems seem to be a manufacturing issue.
Especially with the 22's it seems.

Good luck with it.

My friend with 3 leafs. I believe 2 are 30 kw and 1 - 24 kw is planning on dropping batteries in the future and replacing some of his modules. It sounds like quite a project to me but he's a mechanic and feels it won't be that bad a job.

 

[Firn]

I do believe this was a QC issue on module assembly, but I also believe pushing 150 kw into the battery during DC charging versus charging with 7.2 kwh or even with the 19.2 kwh ford charge would also have different effects on these unbalanced cells.
That wouldn't have been an issue had the cells in the modules been properly matched and balance. Just my opinion. Right or wrong, it's us consumers that have to be without our trucks for their QC issues. Thank God for warranties at least we only have to pay with time without our trucks.

The BMS continuously balances the cells. They also absolutely would have been balanced when manufactured.

 

[Piquette]

It's why we get long (relatively) warranties with EVs.

Extended warranty on the battery would be a good thing too.

Ford will not sell you an extended warranty on a Lightning battery. I called and asked. It seems that after the 8 year/100,000 mile warranty ends you are on your own if a battery module needs replacement. While 8 years/100,000 miles seems long, I think most ICE F-150s have life expectancies much longer than Ford’s Lightning battery warranty.

 

[chl]

My friend with 3 leafs. I believe 2 are 30 kw and 1 - 24 kw is planning on dropping batteries in the future and replacing some of his modules. It sounds like quite a project to me but he's a mechanic and feels it won't be that bad a job.

Yes I've seen videos of people doing that, it is a lot of steps and high voltages to worry about, not something I would try.

My Leaf has low mileage - I retired from commuting pretty soon after I got it, and still has around 80-85% capacity. I only use it for short hops to the store anyway and keep it at 40-50% SOC (per the gauge). So I don't see a need to worry about replacing that battery for the time being.

 

[chl]

Ford will not sell you an extended warranty on a Lightning battery. I called and asked. It seems that after the 8 year/100,000 mile warranty ends you are on your own if a battery module needs replacement. While 8 years/100,000 miles seems long, I think most ICE F-150s have life expectancies much longer than Ford’s Lightning battery warranty.

Yes, for the battery the 8 years/100k miles and 70% capacity loss is the industry standard, and my Leaf had the same if I recall.

I've had my Leaf since Dec 2011, light use and still has 80-85% capacity.
Just a short hop vehicle - nice when gas prices spiked and driving my Ranger was costly.

If after 8 years the Lightning battery fails to have 70% capacity I'd be surprised.
But if it has 84% that would not be a surprise since 2% loss per year is typical from just age.

I do wonder about folks that fast charge all the time, will they fall below 70% after 8 years?
Time will tell when 2030 rolls around.

We do read about other things besides the battery failing here on the threads, that would be covered only by the 3year b-to-b warranty.

Where there is a manufacturing defect that doesn't appear until AFTER the warranty expires, there are sometimes other remedies, lemon laws, product liability laws, and other legal avenues depending on the facts.

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