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Incorporating a Lightning into an existing PV system - without HIS

v2h8484

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Thanks, @VTbuckeye.

The Tesla Gateway II is already set up to sense incoming solar power from my rooftop array, converted to AC by the inverters. If I simply wire the Ford Charge Station Pro (or better yet, the truck's 240 volt ProPower outlet) into the same circuit as my solar array, the Tesla Gateway wouldn't necessarily know the difference, right? Wouldn't it sense incoming energy and treat it the same way whether it's coming from the solar inverter or the truck?
So you want to connect your rooftop solar inverter AC output directly to the same circuit as the F150 AC power output? If so, don't do it. Your rooftop solar inverter is a current source (i.e. grid following) inverter that will push power back to the inverter in the F150 and likely let out the magic smoke.
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ridgebackpilot

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So you want to connect your rooftop solar inverter AC output directly to the same circuit as the F150 AC power output? If so, don't do it. Your rooftop solar inverter is a current source (i.e. grid following) inverter that will push power back to the inverter in the F150 and likely let out the magic smoke.
Good point! So what's the solution? Perhaps a manual or automatic power transfer switch that isolates the F150L as the only source of power when it's connected?
 

v2h8484

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Good point! So what's the solution? Perhaps a manual or automatic power transfer switch that isolates the F150L as the only source of power when it's connected?
The only generator-type backup power solution that Tesla is willing to support is via a transfer switch that completely isolates the Powerwalls and rooftop solar when the backup power source is active. So, that typically means adding a transfer switch before the loads panel with the Powerwall's and rooftop solar on the grid input side of the transfer switch and generator on the backup input side of the switch. So, the Powerwall's and solar are useless when generator power is active.
 

Maquis

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I stand corrected! I just purchased my 2022 Lightning Lariat, which came with the Charge Station Pro, so still learning the systems.

As I said above, however, wouldn't a better option be to forget installing the Home Integration System and treat the Lightning as if it was simply an external generator, supplying 240 volt/30 amp/7.5 kW power to your home? It appears the only hardware really needed for this option is a manual or automatic power transfer switch. Actually it could be as simple as installing a 30 amp generator inlet box like this one, which retails for $36 on Amazon, and wiring it into your home electrical panel. When the grid goes down and your Powerwalls are exhausted, you simply plug in an extension cord from the Lightning's 240 volt outlet, and you're good to go. Total cost including installation: Less than $500.

What am I missing here?
OK. You mean use the Lightning’s onboard inverter known as ProPower. Charge Station Pro is the EVSE that 1) charges the truck, and 2) interfaces with the SunRun Home Integration System.
Just some terminology mixup.
 

ridgebackpilot

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The only generator-type backup power solution that Tesla is willing to support is via a transfer switch that completely isolates the Powerwalls and rooftop solar when the backup power source is active. So, that typically means adding a transfer switch before the loads panel with the Powerwall's and rooftop solar on the grid input side of the transfer switch and generator on the backup input side of the switch. So, the Powerwall's and solar are useless when generator power is active.
That would probably work fine. Think about when you'd need to use the Lightning's ProPower 240v outlet as a backup generator. Probably only in a winter storm situation where your Powerwalls are exhausted and there isn't enough sunshine to recharge them.

In that situation, you'd want to switch over to an independent source of power anyway, whether it's a traditional generator or the Ford F150L.
 

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ridgebackpilot

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OK. You mean use the Lightning’s onboard inverter known as ProPower. Charge Station Pro is the EVSE that 1) charges the truck, and 2) interfaces with the SunRun Home Integration System.
Just some terminology mixup.
Thanks for the clarification. Because I already have three Tesla Powerwalls backing up the house, I'm unlikely to install Ford's Home Integration System because it's duplicative, unnecessary, and very expensive, as @tommolog pointed out in his video.

(I might install the Ford Charge Station Pro as a standalone unit just so I can charge my F150L at its full 80 amp capacity.)

Rather, I'm more interested in the less expensive, practical alternative: Using the F150L's onboard ProPower 240v outlet to provide power to the house via a transfer switch when the Powerwalls have been exhausted.
 

v2h8484

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That would probably work fine. Think about when you'd need to use the Lightning's ProPower 240v outlet as a backup generator. Probably only in a winter storm situation where your Powerwalls are exhausted and there isn't enough sunshine to recharge them.

In that situation, you'd want to switch over to an independent source of power anyway, whether it's a traditional generator or the Ford F150L.
That's a common use case and the main complaint I have seen is that the drained Powerwall's will not get recharged by solar even with plenty of sunshine nor the generator. So, once on generator power there is no possibility to go back to Powerwall or solar until grid power is restored which could be days or weeks.
 

ridgebackpilot

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That's a common use case and the main complaint I have seen is that the drained Powerwall's will not get recharged by solar even with plenty of sunshine nor the generator. So, once on generator power there is no possibility to go back to Powerwall or solar until grid power is restored which could be days or weeks.
Hmmm...my Powerwalls continue to charge via my solar array even when the grid is down for a protracted period. They didn't at first but my solar electrician was able to restore that functionality.

If the circuits are isolated and my home is switched to run off the Lightning, then the solar array should be able to continue recharging the Powerwalls. Provided, of course, that it's not a dark and cloudy day...
 

v2h8484

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Hmmm...my Powerwalls continue to charge via my solar array even when the grid is down for a protracted period. They didn't at first but my solar electrician was able to restore that functionality.

If the circuits are isolated and my home is switched to run off the Lightning, then the solar array should be able to continue recharging the Powerwalls. Provided, of course, that it's not a dark and cloudy day...
The operative word is "drained". During grid outages Powerwall's will shutoff power to loads when the internal battery reserve threshold is tripped then continue to periodically check to see if there is enough solar power to recharge for a couple days. If there not enough solar power then the Powerwall's internal reserve will become drained and shutoff for good until grid power returns. So, in low sunlight events (e.g. storms, wildfires, etc.) that last longer than a few days Powerwall's can be become drained.
 
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world2steven

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I am going to get this blessed by someone who knows what he is doing. But from what I've seen on this forum there doesn't appear to be any reason it shouldn't work. It would seem to be equivalent to just taking my inverter out of the picture and directly connecting the Lightning to a critical loads panel, which a bunch of people have already successfully accomplished.
PV Power Flows-xferOnly.jpg
Are there any Ford Lightning warranty issues connected with using an appropriately chosen and placed manual transfer switch in a circuit connecting the 240V power outlet to a critical loads panel?
 

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world2steven

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@world2steven Let us know if this idea works for you. I'm in the same position: I have a solar array and Tesla Powerwall batteries. So I don't really need to go to the expense of installing the Ford Home Integration System.

That said, the extended range battery pack is the equivalent of nearly 10 Tesla Powerwalls! So I'd like to find a way to connect my truck to my existing home backup system without installing a duplicate gateway.
Just got off the phone with Sol Ark. The rep said a manual transfer switch would NOT work. If I understood him correctly (I am about as far from an electrician as you can get!), the problem is that both the Sol Ark and the Lightning are neutral-bonded. The position of the switch doesn't matter because there would still be wire connectivity between both the Sol Ark 'Load' breaker and the Lightning battery.

If I got this right, the only way to use the Lightning's battery without an HIS is establishing completely separate circuitry. (Is this why you can't have an HIS and a legacy inverter online at the same time?) It appears that a number of people have successfully connected their Lightnings to their home power grid. Short of installing an HIS, is there any way to emulate their success while preserving a legacy PV system for day-to-day operations?
 

ridgebackpilot

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Just got off the phone with Sol Ark. The rep said a manual transfer switch would NOT work. If I understood him correctly (I am about as far from an electrician as you can get!), the problem is that both the Sol Ark and the Lightning are neutral-bonded. The position of the switch doesn't matter because there would still be wire connectivity between both the Sol Ark 'Load' breaker and the Lightning battery.

If I got this right, the only way to use the Lightning's battery without an HIS is establishing completely separate circuitry. (Is this why you can't have an HIS and a legacy inverter online at the same time?) It appears that a number of people have successfully connected their Lightnings to their home power grid. Short of installing an HIS, is there any way to emulate their success while preserving a legacy PV system for day-to-day operations?
I met with an electrician for a site survey this week as well. He was similarly pessimistic about my ability to connect my home to the Lightning using a transfer switch or double-throw safety switch. He agreed with others here that if it were possible, the transfer switch would have to be installed completely independent of my solar array, solar inverter, Tesla Powerwall batteries, and Tesla Gateway.

He mentioned that a better approach would probably be to wait for new inverter technology to become available that allows a generator to be connected directly to the solar inverter and thus integrated into a solar power system. My impression is that this is what Sol-Ark is trying to do, but I'm not sure since I don't know much about them. Is any other inverter company (Enphase?) planning to release new inverter technology that would allow power input from a generator (or Lightning)?
 

v2h8484

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Just got off the phone with Sol Ark. The rep said a manual transfer switch would NOT work. If I understood him correctly (I am about as far from an electrician as you can get!), the problem is that both the Sol Ark and the Lightning are neutral-bonded. The position of the switch doesn't matter because there would still be wire connectivity between both the Sol Ark 'Load' breaker and the Lightning battery.
I don't have Sol-Ark but based on your diagram, it seems If you use 3-pole (neutral) transfer switches in your diagram then it should be fine.
 
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world2steven

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More conversation with Sol Ark. I mentioned "Neutral Switching" transfer switches like the Generac 9854 (50A) His reply was: "We're needing to confirm if this switch is just switching the neutrals? Or is it switching both the neutrals and the grounds?" If both, there may be a possibility connecting to the Sol Ark's 'gen' breaker would work.

It would be nice to come up with a generic solution, assuming this neutral-bonded / GFCI is a problem for all or most hybrid inverters - and then get it blessed by Ford. Ford's ties to Sunrun are sinking a powerful marketing pitch: 'a free truck and 10 Tesla Powerwalls for half (maybe now 2/3rds?) the price'
 

eopiela

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Just got off the phone with Sol Ark. The rep said a manual transfer switch would NOT work. If I understood him correctly (I am about as far from an electrician as you can get!), the problem is that both the Sol Ark and the Lightning are neutral-bonded. The position of the switch doesn't matter because there would still be wire connectivity between both the Sol Ark 'Load' breaker and the Lightning battery.

If I got this right, the only way to use the Lightning's battery without an HIS is establishing completely separate circuitry. (Is this why you can't have an HIS and a legacy inverter online at the same time?) It appears that a number of people have successfully connected their Lightnings to their home power grid. Short of installing an HIS, is there any way to emulate their success while preserving a legacy PV system for day-to-day operations?
The Sol Ark *will* work with the Lightning on the Gen input so long as the Ground Pin is removed from the cable plug in from the truck.
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