12V battery failure while driving 45mph: Fix post #58

[Scorpio3d]

I would not use that dealer again and I would blast them everywhere possible that is absolutely ridiculous!

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[NotPatel]

Picked up my truck yesterday. Hopkins Ford damaged my passenger bedside. So that will be fun to deal with.

Outside of that, this morning, I am stranded in the middle of the road with the same exact issues as last time. No power waiting for roadside assistance. A tow was about 90 minutes away. I have called another dealership this time around. At this moment, just sitting in my Lightning waiting.

On the plus side, big kudos to Brian @Ford Motor Company for all his help in prompt responses!

 

[Ford Motor Company]

Picked up my truck yesterday. Hopkins Ford damaged my passenger bedside. So that will be fun to deal with.

Outside of that, this morning, I am stranded in the middle of the road with the same exact issues as last time. No power waiting for roadside assistance. A tow was about 90 minutes away. I have called another dealership this time around. At this moment, just sitting in my Lightning waiting.

On the plus side, big kudos to Brian @Ford Motor Company for all his help in prompt responses!

Team can see what has happened and are on it. We'll get you sorted!

 

[ZeusDriver]

Picked up my truck yesterday. Hopkins Ford damaged my passenger bedside. So that will be fun to deal with.

Outside of that, this morning, I am stranded in the middle of the road with the same exact issues as last time. No power waiting for roadside assistance. A tow was about 90 minutes away. I have called another dealership this time around. At this moment, just sitting in my Lightning waiting.

On the plus side, big kudos to Brian @Ford Motor Company for all his help in prompt responses!

I'm glad Brian has been able to help.

It has to be an incredibly frustrating experience. Makes me think that I should get an OBD scanner to keep track of what's going on in my (brand new) orphan. I have been lucky to have not required service at a dealership... ever, if memory serves... although I attempted to have Tesla service my non-functional automatic wipers under "warranty". But I never had to take it to a service center because I was told, by the corporate people, that the problem could not be fixed, but might get better with the next update.. It did not. Similar story regarding FSD, which tried to kill me twice. (I got FSD for free for about sixth months, and it was scary fun to test. I used to race motorcycles, and flew aerobatics. Both of those seemed safer than driving with FSD engaged. )

I had to visit 3 Tesla service centers to find the one person who understood how to get a trailer brake controller pigtail (or even what it purpose was)! Said pigtail is shown in the owner's manual, with the instruction to visit a service center to get one (free of charge, as it happens.) The Model Y had been out for several years when I bought mine (2024), and every person except one had never heard of anyone towing anything with one, despite the vehicle's 3500lb tow rating.
Oh wait... memory does not, in fact, serve. (I must be more feeble-minded than I thought.) I had Plymouth fix the AC on my (still under warranty) Voyager. (What is a Plymouth? Well, there used to be a Chrysler Corporation....) And there was also a Honda Accord that had rust issues fixed for free several years out of warranty.

Seems to me that it would be in Ford's best interest to replace your vehicle with one that functions correctly, without your having to invoke the Lemon Law. Even with Ford Corporate's involvement you are still having the issue. Troubling.

 

[ZeusDriver]

In a half-hearted defense of Ford's training of mechanics:

In the first round of AI funding in the 1980's I developed an expert system to diagnose a complicated high-speed packaging machine. This system, it turned out, diagnosed a problem that 3 trained industrial mechanics could not diagnose and fix in a full shift (thus 24 man hours). The mechanics never fired up the expert system. Their boss did, and had the machine running in 15 minutes.

Mechanics can find diagnosing complicated cars difficult, despite well-intentioned corporate training programs. Many are in way over their heads.

All the systems that run a Lightning are algorithmic, aside from some visual recognition stuff. Given the apparent inability of mechanics to understand what is happening with the Lightning, perhaps an expert system could help. They should be better than the antiques I developed. Every dealership should be able to diagnose these issues via the simplest version of AI. These vehicles are just not that complicated (as compared to an automated machine that took up about an acre of floor space, and had a couple thousand inputs and outputs.)

I feel a rant coming on. I'll quit here.

 

[Lytning]

Team can see what has happened and are on it. We'll get you sorted!

Brian @Ford Motor Company

Thank you very much for promptly responding to @NotPatel's recurring issue!

After you get him aligned with a dealership who can help him, I request your response here on the forum to Ford's plan, or lack thereof, to provide us owner / drivers with a 12 volt SOC display.

As you know there are numerous requests for this information over the past 3-1/2 years. Regarding @NotPatel's issue ... if he had the ability to view 12 volt SOC, he could have seen in advance that a vehicle shutdown was about to occur. He could have at least moved his truck to the shoulder out of traffic. Every other vehicle I have owned in the past 60 years has had an alternator / 12 volt charging gauge or warning light. Those vehicles warned me in advance of a loss of 12 volt power, allowing me to steer the vehicle out of harm's way. Since NOTHING on our Lightning BEV's works without adequate 12 volt power, providing the driver with the ability to view 12 volt status is an absolute necessity.

 

[ZeusDriver]

Since NOTHING on our Lightning BEV's work without adequate 12 volt power, providing the driver with the ability to view 12 volt status is an absolute necessity.

Yes! I agree 100%.

 

[PrimeRisk]

This whole thing certainly sounds like it all should be covered by warranty.

I agree. Nissan certainly took this position with my 2015 Nissan Leaf. A software defect would leave the telematics modem connected and never hang up at random intervals, but about once a week. This would flatten the battery, so every time I went to go to work or drive home from work it was a dice-roll if the vehicle would even unlock the doors. It was in the shop a dozen times as they searched for the issue and they replaced 5 batteries as they wouldn't charge to spec after being completely drained a couple times. They never even hinted at trying to charge me for the battery or labor, they'd just hand me the paperwork that I had a new battery when I came back to pick it up.

The rest of the story if you are interested:

My independent research identified a software update to the telematics system that addressed an issue where the telematics modem wouldn't hang up and remained active until you pulled the fuse or disconnected the battery. People on the Leaf Forum were complaining not about battery issues, but about the inability to use the app for anything while it was in this state. I noticed that the app, as flaky as it always was, would never work for a few days before I got a dead battery. I rationalized that if the modem continued to be active, it would continue to draw power and could certainly wear the battery down over a few days and finally flatten it.

I took the info to the dealer and the service manager just scoffed. He refused to apply the patch stating that they needed to track down the clear electrical system issue and changing other things was not going to help in their diagnosis. So, I took it upon myself to test my theory. I started popping the hood every morning at work and evening at home to pull and replace the fuse for the telematics, thus resetting it. For the next 3 weeks the app worked nearly all the time and I got no dead batteries.

I called the service manager with my findings and he still refused to consider applying the patch as it couldn't possibly be the source of the problem. He also gave me static for doing the fuse pulls as he claimed doing that could cause damage that wouldn't be covered under warranty. I told him ok, I'll stop pulling the fuse, but the next time the battery went dead I'd make them tow it under roadside assistance coverage and I'd file for a buy-back under Lemon Law. It had spent more than 30 days in the shop for the same issue, so the law absolutely applied and if they gave me any static I'd get an attorney and they could pay for him too.

I let the vehicle sit all weekend without driving it and Monday morning it was dead again. I had them tow it and the dealership GM met me when I arrived. He offered me a brand new Leaf to drive if they'd give me one more chance to fix the car. They had escalated to Nissan and they were sending an engineer to look at my vehicle. I decided I'd give them one more chance and drove their new Leaf like I stole it for 2 weeks while waiting for the engineer to arrive.

The engineer did his assessment and, after another new battery and 2 days of testing the vehicle, concluded he could not identify the issue, but the evidence was clear that there was an issue with the car. He was going to authorize the buy-back and they were going to ship the vehicle to a facility to tear it apart to get to the bottom of it all. With nothing to lose, I asked him about the telematics modem patch. He immediately responded that there was a TSB on the modem, but nothing linked to an electrical system issue, just connectivity. I challenged him asking how long it would take for the modem to be on for it to drain the battery and he said it would be at least a couple days, but admitted that with typical daily driving/charging the battery may not get fully recharged with a constant drain.

He applied the patch and they gave the car back to me. The engineer said his buy-back authorization stood if it didn't fix the issue or I just decided I was done after all of the trouble. Nissan also issued me a $1000 credit through the dealership for parts and service. It did fix the issue and I never had a battery issue again for the rest of the time I owned the vehicle.

 

[NotPatel]

I agree. Nissan certainly took this position with my 2015 Nissan Leaf. A software defect would leave the telematics modem connected and never hang up at random intervals, but about once a week. This would flatten the battery, so every time I went to go to work or drive home from work it was a dice-roll if the vehicle would even unlock the doors. It was in the shop a dozen times as they searched for the issue and they replaced 5 batteries as they wouldn't charge to spec after being completely drained a couple times. They never even hinted at trying to charge me for the battery or labor, they'd just hand me the paperwork that I had a new battery when I came back to pick it up.

The rest of the story if you are interested:

My independent research identified a software update to the telematics system that addressed an issue where the telematics modem wouldn't hang up and remained active until you pulled the fuse or disconnected the battery. People on the Leaf Forum were complaining not about battery issues, but about the inability to use the app for anything while it was in this state. I noticed that the app, as flaky as it always was, would never work for a few days before I got a dead battery. I rationalized that if the modem continued to be active, it would continue to draw power and could certainly wear the battery down over a few days and finally flatten it.

I took the info to the dealer and the service manager just scoffed. He refused to apply the patch stating that they needed to track down the clear electrical system issue and changing other things was not going to help in their diagnosis. So, I took it upon myself to test my theory. I started popping the hood every morning at work and evening at home to pull and replace the fuse for the telematics, thus resetting it. For the next 3 weeks the app worked nearly all the time and I got no dead batteries.

I called the service manager with my findings and he still refused to consider applying the patch as it couldn't possibly be the source of the problem. He also gave me static for doing the fuse pulls as he claimed doing that could cause damage that wouldn't be covered under warranty. I told him ok, I'll stop pulling the fuse, but the next time the battery went dead I'd make them tow it under roadside assistance coverage and I'd file for a buy-back under Lemon Law. It had spent more than 30 days in the shop for the same issue, so the law absolutely applied and if they gave me any static I'd get an attorney and they could pay for him too.

I let the vehicle sit all weekend without driving it and Monday morning it was dead again. I had them tow it and the dealership GM met me when I arrived. He offered me a brand new Leaf to drive if they'd give me one more chance to fix the car. They had escalated to Nissan and they were sending an engineer to look at my vehicle. I decided I'd give them one more chance and drove their new Leaf like I stole it for 2 weeks while waiting for the engineer to arrive.

The engineer did his assessment and, after another new battery and 2 days of testing the vehicle, concluded he could not identify the issue, but the evidence was clear that there was an issue with the car. He was going to authorize the buy-back and they were going to ship the vehicle to a facility to tear it apart to get to the bottom of it all. With nothing to lose, I asked him about the telematics modem patch. He immediately responded that there was a TSB on the modem, but nothing linked to an electrical system issue, just connectivity. I challenged him asking how long it would take for the modem to be on for it to drain the battery and he said it would be at least a couple days, but admitted that with typical daily driving/charging the battery may not get fully recharged with a constant drain.

He applied the patch and they gave the car back to me. The engineer said his buy-back authorization stood if it didn't fix the issue or I just decided I was done after all of the trouble. Nissan also issued me a $1000 credit through the dealership for parts and service. It did fix the issue and I never had a battery issue again for the rest of the time I owned the vehicle.

I would love a resolution like that. So far, Hawk in St Charles has been great and they gave me a loaner. I hope they can make this reliable transportation.

 

[The Weatherman]

Thank you for the prompt response, Brian.

You have more pull with Ford than we do. Or, do you? My experience shows that companies which don't respond to their customers, don't respond to their employees.

Integrity, trust and customer service are built upon the small, but important, details. If Ford, and their dealerships, say to a customer they are going to call them on a given day, call them. If you don't have an answer yet, call them anyway and tell the customer that. When you don't call when you say you will, the strong message to the customer is that they are not even important enough for a one minute telephone call. Millions of dollars of advertising are negated, and ill-will created, by the lack of a telephone call.

Brian and I had this conversation many months ago when I first had the opportunity to communicate with him. Unfortunately, this cultural needs to start at the top and work its way down the organization, huh Jim.

 

[ZeusDriver]

Outside of that, this morning, I am stranded in the middle of the road with the same exact issues as last time. No power waiting for roadside assistance. A tow was about 90 minutes away. I have called another dealership this time around. At this moment, just sitting in my Lightning waiting.

@NotPatel :
Did Hopkins actually replace an inverter in your truck? If so which one? If you have the 9.6 kW ProPower system, you would have 2 inverters. The 2.4 system has just one. They are fed from the HV battery, not the 12V battery.

Did they replace one of the traction motor inverters? These too are fed by the HV battery.
Perhaps, if they have no experience with electric vehicles, they thought that one of these inverters would cause the 12 V battery to die. Perhaps they thought that a traction inverter was damaged by the 12V battery failure? Presumably a Ford corporate tech would have caught that.

Clearly they replaced the wrong thing, because your issue returned.

Much more likely, as a source of battery problems, would be the DC-DC converter that charges the 12V battery. These are never called "inverters," although someone entirely unfamiliar with electricity or electric vehicles might use that terminology. (Every EV sold in the US uses a dc-dc converter for charging the LV battery.) No one who is unfamiliar with EVs should be working on your truck: the voltages involved can kill a tech.

The 12V battery also has a simple (not cell level) BMS attached to it. Those have been problematic. Perhaps that is what they were calling an inverter?

You mentioned a part number. Can you post that?

 

[NotPatel]

@NotPatel :
Did Hopkins actually replace an inverter in your truck? If so which one? If you have the 9.6 kW ProPower system, you would have 2 inverters. The 2.4 system has just one. They are fed from the HV battery, not the 12V battery.

Did they replace one of the traction motor inverters? These too are fed by the HV battery.
Perhaps, if they have no experience with electric vehicles, they thought that one of these inverters would cause the 12 V battery to die. Perhaps they thought that a traction inverter was damaged by the 12V battery failure? Presumably a Ford corporate tech would have caught that.

Clearly they replaced the wrong thing, because your issue returned.

Much more likely, as a source of battery problems, would be the DC-DC converter that charges the 12V battery. These are never called "inverters," although someone entirely unfamiliar with electricity or electric vehicles might use that terminology. (Every EV sold in the US uses a dc-dc converter for charging the LV battery.) No one who is unfamiliar with EVs should be working on your truck: the voltages involved can kill a tech.

The 12V battery also has a simple (not cell level) BMS attached to it. Those have been problematic. Perhaps that is what they were calling an inverter?

You mentioned a part number. Can you post that?

I have no idea. They said they would email me paper work, have not had it sent.

They are supposed to call me back EOD about the damage to my bed side. No call back. I called them 3 times and left a message with their service manager.

@Ford Motor Company, not sure if you can help as I understand dealers are franchises. I am worried they will say "we dont have videos anymore" after running out the clock and not cover the damage to my bedside.

I will post it as soon as I have the invoice from them. I've asked for it 3 times today. I asked for a print out last night. No dice.

The new dealer told me it was a battery module and they are rush ordering it. I should have it back Monday/Tuesday and know more.

 

[Lytning]

Regarding @NotPatel’s truck damage at the dealership … When I have to leave my truck at a dealership, I ask the Service Advisor to walk out to my truck with me. I start a video recording on my phone, walk all around the truck recording its condition, and ask the SA to point out any damage he sees. This creates a time-stamped video of the truck’s condition at drop-off. I used one of these videos to prove that a custom hitch cover was damaged while at the dealership.

 

[El Duderino]

So the root cause of complete shutdown of the original posters Lightning was a failed high voltage battery module, not a 12v battery. So monitoring the high voltage battery levels would be more important than the 12v battery voltage level to prevent middle of the road shutdown.

 

[NotPatel]

So the root cause of complete shutdown of the original posters Lightning was a failed high voltage battery module, not a 12v battery. So monitoring the high voltage battery levels would be more important than the 12v battery voltage level to prevent middle of the road shutdown.

Honestly, I need to do some research and figure that out. So far, I only know what they have told me. My battery is generally never under a 40% charge. I guess I never checked my 12 V battery until yesterday morning when I left the house and it was at 70%.

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