Tesla Magic dock adaptor slower?

[potato]

From the A2Z website:

For added safety, the A2Z Typhoon Plug incorporates two temperature sensor switches. The first sensor derates the charging process upon reaching a certain temperature, while the second sensor halts charging, the temperature are strategically placed within the adapter. Charging can resume once the temperature normalizes and the adapter is reconnected. It's worth noting that during real-life testing, thermal shutdown was never reached.

But if he saw a code in Forscan, that means the truck got hot.

Sponsored

 

[ronscantlin]

But if he saw a code in Forscan, that means the truck got hot.

I wasn’t using the a2z adaptors anyways. It was the Tesla magic dock adaptor.

 

[RickLightning]

I wasn’t using the a2z adaptors anyways. It was the Tesla magic dock adaptor.

All quality adapters have technology like A2Z...

 

[ronscantlin]

All quality adapters have technology like A2Z...

I’m wondering if stressing the cable (short Tesla cable), in turn stressing the truck to adaptor coupling, creates poor physical connection and hot contacts?

 

[RickLightning]

I’m wondering if stressing the cable (short Tesla cable), in turn stressing the truck to adaptor coupling, creates poor physical connection and hot contacts?

I'm confused. Quality adapters have features to not overheat. Features communicate back to the charger, "I'm f'in hot!". Charger slows down.

 

[ronscantlin]

I'm confused. Quality adapters have features to not overheat. Features communicate back to the charger, "I'm f'in hot!". Charger slows down.

Not sure what’s confusing. I’m reiterating your point. If the contracts are getting hot, that will trigger the thermal sensor and slow the charge, right?

 

[potato]

All quality adapters have technology like A2Z...

I like A2Z but I'm skeptical of their claim that they can derate the charge. Unless their adapter includes active electronics doing MITM on the PLC communications, all their thermal switches can do is open the circuit on the signalling pins, stopping the charge entirely. I really don't see how they can "derate" the adapter.

Teardowns on other adapters have shown just that, thermal switches inline in the control wires that can only stop charging, not derate. I'd love to see a teardown of the Typhoon Pro.

The truck can derate, of course, if it detects a high temperature, but there's no communication between the truck and the adapter. So it would have to get hot enough for the truck to detect it on its own.

Since we're talking about Magic Docks, Tesla could be doing their own magic and have some way to communicate between their adapter and charging cabinet I suppose.

 

[Zprime29]

I like A2Z but I'm skeptical of their claim that they can derate the charge. Unless their adapter includes active electronics doing MITM on the PLC communications, all their thermal switches can do is open the circuit on the signalling pins, stopping the charge entirely. I really don't see how they can "derate" the adapter.

Teardowns on other adapters have shown just that, thermal switches inline in the control wires that can only stop charging, not derate. I'd love to see a teardown of the Typhoon Pro.

The truck can derate, of course, if it detects a high temperature, but there's no communication between the truck and the adapter. So it would have to get hot enough for the truck to detect it on its own.

Since we're talking about Magic Docks, Tesla could be doing their own magic and have some way to communicate between their adapter and charging cabinet I suppose.

All adapters that intend to be UL listed can derate.

 

[K6CCC]

Charge rates can vary quite a bit and sometimes in surprising ways. Yesterday I did an almost 700 mile drive and charge four times - all at Tesla SuperChargers. The first and second were both at the V4 station in Baker, Calif., the third was a V3 in Perris, Calif., and the last a V3 in Escondido, Calif. The two of note were #2 and #3. At the second was after lunch time and it was on the high side of 90 degrees. I charged from 22 - 90% so of course the rate dropped off a lot after 80% bringing the average way down. Overall I had an average charge rate of 112.80 KW. The third session just before dinner time, the sun was behind buildings, and the temperature was in the mid 70s. I charged from 24 - 80%, so no above 80% derating. I had an average charge rate of 108.57 KW. Both sessions started out around 180KW, but the third session dropped off to around 100 KW pretty fast. When I disconnected, the Tesla connector was downright hot, but my A2Z NACS to CCS-1 adapter was completely cool. Based on that, I am assuming that the derating was due to the Tesla connector being hot, but not due to the connection with my adapter - interesting...

 

[potato]

All adapters that intend to be UL listed can derate.

Thanks. That image in your response kind of smells like AI, which I do not trust as far as I can throw it, but it does make sense J3400 would include some provision for it.

The teardown of the Lectron unit I did force myself to watch did include a couple of resistors as well as the thermal switches. So perhaps that's the signalling, to add some resistance to the circuit somewhere. It was certainly rudimentary.

Seems like the J3400 standard itself is paywalled; I can't seem to find the details. In particular I would like to know if the *truck* can detect if the adapter is getting hot, or whether it's strictly between the charger and the adapter. Doesn't matter much in the end I suppose. But I would like to fully understand how it works. I don't want to be giving out bad information.

 

[Joneii]

Charge rates can vary quite a bit and sometimes in surprising ways. Yesterday I did an almost 700 mile drive and charge four times - all at Tesla SuperChargers. The first and second were both at the V4 station in Baker, Calif., the third was a V3 in Perris, Calif., and the last a V3 in Escondido, Calif. The two of note were #2 and #3. At the second was after lunch time and it was on the high side of 90 degrees. I charged from 22 - 90% so of course the rate dropped off a lot after 80% bringing the average way down. Overall I had an average charge rate of 112.80 KW. The third session just before dinner time, the sun was behind buildings, and the temperature was in the mid 70s. I charged from 24 - 80%, so no above 80% derating. I had an average charge rate of 108.57 KW. Both sessions started out around 180KW, but the third session dropped off to around 100 KW pretty fast. When I disconnected, the Tesla connector was downright hot, but my A2Z NACS to CCS-1 adapter was completely cool. Based on that, I am assuming that the derating was due to the Tesla connector being hot, but not due to the connection with my adapter - interesting...

Did you happen to look at your battery temp gauge immediately after charging? The truck doesn’t show the gauge while charging, but when you go to drive away you can take a look. I have been noticing elevated battery temps after my second or third DCFC in a day on road trips. The elevated temperatures correspond with slower charging speeds. This started happening last summer on a road trip through the west. It was 114 F ambient temps in Kansas, so I assumed that was the issue. However, that evening I charged in Denver at 60 F and experienced the same issue. I have been working with my dealership ever since to try and resolve this, but the issue remains and even happened in February on a road trip to Vermont with ambient temps near freezing.

I’ve been working with the dealership, but after replacing cooling valves, a battery module, the charge port, software updates and various inline sensors; the issue remains. While the temps return to the dead middle shortly after driving, I am concerned that at 90,000+ miles I have an unsolvable battery/powertrain issue as I approach the warranty limit.

 

[Joneii]

 

[Zprime29]

Thanks. That image in your response kind of smells like AI, which I do not trust as far as I can throw it, but it does make sense J3400 would include some provision for it.

The teardown of the Lectron unit I did force myself to watch did include a couple of resistors as well as the thermal switches. So perhaps that's the signalling, to add some resistance to the circuit somewhere. It was certainly rudimentary.

Seems like the J3400 standard itself is paywalled; I can't seem to find the details. In particular I would like to know if the *truck* can detect if the adapter is getting hot, or whether it's strictly between the charger and the adapter. Doesn't matter much in the end I suppose. But I would like to fully understand how it works. I don't want to be giving out bad information.

Yes it was an AI response, sorry I usually caveat that when using such responses wholesale. I didn't have the time to properly research how adapters control charge rate despite being passive. I think the pertinent bit of data is that the spec says (at least according to AI, as I also don't have access to the standard) the adapters control the signal that goes to the car. There is no communication directly with the charging equipment. It modifies the control signal to the car telling it that things are getting toasty and to slow down the rate. From what I gather, it just needs to modify the duty cycle of the PWM indicating that a lower max current is now available. The car then sends a signal to the charger requesting the lower rate. That can be done with passive bits and bobs.

 

[K6CCC]

Did you happen to look at your battery temp gauge immediately after charging?

After the second charge of the day (middle of the afternoon at 90+ degrees), the battery temp was slightly elevated (less than your photo above). It had cooled a little when I did the third charge (the one with the somewhat reduced rate), and was right back to the middle line for the fourth charge (fastest of the day).
That was the first time I had ever seen the battery temp above the middle line.

 

[Joneii]

After the second charge of the day (middle of the afternoon at 90+ degrees), the battery temp was slightly elevated (less than your photo above). It had cooled a little when I did the third charge (the one with the somewhat reduced rate), and was right back to the middle line for the fourth charge (fastest of the day).
That was the first time I had ever seen the battery temp above the middle line.

Thanks for the reply! It makes me feel a little better that other Lightnings are also seeing some temperature elevation during multiple DCFCs. I did mention to the EV tech my theory that this might be software related and not a bug, but a feature. I don’t remember exactly when, but it was before I noticed the temperature changes, the truck seemed to have an increase in peak charging rate. When I first got my truck in 2022, the highest charge rate I ever saw was 173 kW/h. Sometime about 2 years ago or so I noticed that my peak charge rate was consistently higher for the first 6-8 minutes—pushing 180-185 kW/h. I sort of remember someone on this forum talking about a software update that raised the peak charging rate. So if that is true, it may be that they increased the charge rate and the cooling algorithm didn’t get updated. This would be fine as the charging speed is better in your first charge of the day, but you may have issues on the follow on charges. My tech didn’t hear of anything like that, but said he would ask the engineers when he spoke with them. I don’t know if he actually did.

Sponsored