12V battery replacement

[johnnyonetime]

Which one did you get? Sodium? Lithium? Did you have to set anything up with the truck differently for your battery after/during installation?

My original battery has been perfect (80%-90% all the time) until last Tuesday when the tech came down for a software update and had his car battery Directly (not after BMS) connected to mine. I told him Ford says not to do that but he said he knows what he is doing. After update 12V battery was at 50%. I juiced it up and drove it for few days. I drove it yesterday too. Today when I opened the door, I saw for the first time a progress bar telling me it is shutting the car down to preserve 12V battery. I turned on the truck and 12V was at 50% and HVB at 55% SOC. I have never seen LVB at 50% the day after I drove it. Not sure if the jumping screwed up the battery or BMS. I don't seem to have any new OTA updates so I am thinking it may be the time to look for a new battery. I doubt dealer will cover replacement in it's current condition (still holding some charge after 2.5 years, 20K). I put Lithium batteries in my motorcycle and my Wife's scooter years ago and they have been flawless. I just don't know how they would work with Lightning BMS.



Does that mean Lithium batteries will confuse BMS?



Li-Ion does not like heat either. Those jumper batteries are usually stored at full capacity as well. You may want to check it periodically. Making sure it does not look pregnant.

Lithium about 2 years ago. Configured for the Lightning and simple installation with 10mm wrench. About 9lbs lighter. I’m in central Florida and it’s warm this time of year.
Screen shot from app below.

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[SpaceEVDriver]

Does that mean Lithium batteries will confuse BMS?

Yes. BMS for Pb-A is different from BMS for Lithium. Charge curves are different.

 

[chl]

Does that mean Lithium batteries will confuse BMS?

I wonder that myself. That language came from the electrical system overview section of the Modifiers Guide. Since the original battery was an AGM (lead acid Absorbent Glass Mat) battery.

I read somewhere that AGM and Lithium Batteries can be swapped in some cases.

However, the charging systems for the two types are different, and since we cannot change the charger (or its charging profile?) from AGM to LIthium, there could be apparently problems with cell balancing in the Lithium battery. This video discusses the problems:



As we know from our EV's HV Li batteries, there is a BMS which maintains cell balance among the many cells within the battery while charging, discharging and even when idle (in some EVs - not sure about the Lightning). This prevents damage from individual cell overcharging or undercharging,

The BMS for the AGM does not have that capability and merely manages terminal voltage and current, unless it can be adapted for an Li battery.

So when replacing the AGM 12V battery with a Li 12V battery, the Lightning 12V battery BMS will not maintain the Li battery cells properly, unless it has a Li mode.

The life span of the Li battery would be negatively affected if the AGM BMS cannot be adapted for a Li battery.

Maybe some Lightning owners have swapped out the AGM for a Li and can report how it has worked out?

I have no personal experience with such a swap to relate, just basing the above on what I know about the different battery technologies (AGM and Li battery).

 

[johnnyonetime]

I don't know if I was seeing things or not but I swear I saw a selector for either or type of battery in either FDRS or Forscan, don't remember which but I do remember that option so it may be possible to use the lithium, I plan to go with an LFP just like my home solar storage system. They don't like the cold is their only achilles heel, but they do have heated versions for northern use, I'm in the tropics so not a worry for me.

I'll investigate more when this heat dome moves off us.

I wonder that myself. That language came from the electrical system overview section of the Modifiers Guide. Since the original battery was an AGM (lead acid Absorbent Glass Mat) battery.

I read somewhere that AGM and Lithium Batteries can be swapped in some cases.

However, the charging systems for the two types are different, and since we cannot change the charger (or its charging profile?) from AGM to LIthium, there could be apparently problems with cell balancing in the Lithium battery. This video discusses the problems:



As we know from our EV's HV Li batteries, there is a BMS which maintains cell balance among the many cells within the battery while charging, discharging and even when idle. This prevents damage from individual cell overcharging or undercharging,

The BMS for the AGM does not have that capability and merely manages terminal voltage and current, unless it can be adapted for an Li battery.

So when replacing the AGM 12V battery with a Li 12V battery, the Lightning 12V battery BMS will not maintain the Li battery cells properly, unless it has a Li mode.

The life span of the Li battery would be negatively affected if the AGM BMS cannot be adapted for a Li battery.

Maybe some Lightning owners have swapped out the AGM for a Li and can report how it has worked out?

I have no personal experience with such a swap to relate, just basing the above on what I know about the different battery technologies (AGM and Li battery).

l’ve been using the Lithium battery in my 22 Lariat ER for over 2 years with no issues. OEM 12v barely made it 8 months. Ohmmu advertised as ready to go. See screenshot from app below

 

[chl]

Lithium about 2 years ago. Configured for the Lightning and simple installation with 10mm wrench. About 9lbs lighter. I’m in central Florida and it’s warm this time of year.
Screen shot from app below.

That terminal voltage indicates that battery is at about 90% SOC. Does the APP have a SOH calculation - that would be interesting to see.

Apparently, it has a built in BMS to balance the cells so that makes it compatible with the Lightning system:

• Proprietary 12V Lithium cell and BMS technology that is a drop-in replacement to your existing battery (no firmware changes needed)

That explains the $479 price tag.

https://www.ohmmu.com/product-page/12v-lithium-battery-for-ford-f-150-lightning

Without a Li BMS on-board, a Li battery would not be compatible though.

 

[Maxx]

Lithium about 2 years ago. Configured for the Lightning and simple installation with 10mm wrench. About 9lbs lighter. I’m in central Florida and it’s warm this time of year.
Screen shot from app below.

This looks like theoretically you should be able to disconnect the battery without disconnecting the cables when you are traveling using just your app. Then again, if it talks to your app, that means it is consuming power.

Yes. BMS for Pb-A is different from BMS for Lithium. Charge curves are different.

I wonder if that means, we could replace the BMS we replaced for a recall with one, specially designed for Li-Ion battery. $20 is not that bad if it is available.

I wonder that myself. That language came from the electrical system overview section of the Modifiers Guide. Since the original battery was an AGM (lead acid Absorbent Glass Mat) battery.

I read somewhere that AGM and Lithium Batteries can be swapped in some cases.

However, the charging systems for the two types are different, and since we cannot change the charger (or its charging profile?) from AGM to LIthium, there could be apparently problems with cell balancing in the Lithium battery. This video discusses the problems:



As we know from our EV's HV Li batteries, there is a BMS which maintains cell balance among the many cells within the battery while charging, discharging and even when idle (in some EVs - not sure about the Lightning). This prevents damage from individual cell overcharging or undercharging,

The BMS for the AGM does not have that capability and merely manages terminal voltage and current, unless it can be adapted for an Li battery.

So when replacing the AGM 12V battery with a Li 12V battery, the Lightning 12V battery BMS will not maintain the Li battery cells properly, unless it has a Li mode.

The life span of the Li battery would be negatively affected if the AGM BMS cannot be adapted for a Li battery.

Maybe some Lightning owners have swapped out the AGM for a Li and can report how it has worked out?

I have no personal experience with such a swap to relate, just basing the above on what I know about the different battery technologies (AGM and Li battery).

Great video. One thing we may be getting mixed up a little here is that even EGO batteries have BMS inside and I am sure the Li-Ion battery our friend listed here with communication capabilities can balance it's cells. However as your video mentioned, if the truck is not providing enough voltage to the terminals, BMS can not do anything about that (unless it does a bunch of conversions inside to step it up).

I don't know if I was seeing things or not but I swear I saw a selector for either or type of battery in either FDRS or Forscan, don't remember which but I do remember that option so it may be possible to use the lithium, I plan to go with an LFP just like my home solar storage system. They don't like the cold is their only achilles heel, but they do have heated versions for northern use, I'm in the tropics so not a worry for me.

I'll investigate more when this heat dome moves off us.

Please keep us posted if you find out more about this.

 

[SpaceEVDriver]

That terminal voltage indicates that battery is at about 90% SOC. Does the APP have a SOH calculation - that would be interesting to see.

Apparently, it has a built in BMS to balance the cells so that makes it compatible with the Lightning system:

• Proprietary 12V Lithium cell and BMS technology that is a drop-in replacement to your existing battery (no firmware changes needed)

That explains the $479 price tag.

https://www.ohmmu.com/product-page/12v-lithium-battery-for-ford-f-150-lightning

Without a Li BMS on-board, a Li battery would not be compatible though.

Yeah. Basically it looks like the BMS+software in the Ohmmu battery knows how to lie to the Lightning’s BMS to convince it it’s something it isn’t. That’s fine, probably works okay. But $500 for a battery replacement feels steep to me. Not saying I won’t go that route at some point.

 

[SpaceEVDriver]

I wonder if that means, we could replace the BMS we replaced for a recall with one, specially designed for Li-Ion battery. $20 is not that bad if it is available.

You would want a firmware that knew how to lie to the Lightning’s system about the state of the battery. That’s where the Ohmmu battery advancement comes in. It’s not that it’s a lithium battery. That’s fine, you can buy much cheaper lithium batteries. The trick is that they spent time developing profiles for the various vehicles their battery might be installed in and it knows how to pretend to be something it isn’t.

You’re paying $200 for the battery and $300 for the development of a translator between the 12V lithium battery and the Lightning.

 

[Maquis]

Yeah. Basically it looks like the BMS+software in the Ohmmu battery knows how to lie to the Lightning’s BMS to convince it it’s something it isn’t. That’s fine, probably works okay. But $500 for a battery replacement feels steep to me. Not saying I won’t go that route at some point.

If you look at a cutaway of an Ohmmu, there’s no way you’ll give $500 for it.

 

[SpaceEVDriver]

If you look at a cutaway of an Ohmmu, there’s no way you’ll give $500 for it.

Interesting. I haven’t seen a cutaway. Thanks.
I think then I’ll stick to replacing my AGMs every few years.

 

[johnnyonetime]

If you look at a cutaway of an Ohmmu, there’s no way you’ll give $500 for it.

l paid $400 including shipping, was a little pricey but wasn’t happy with OEM being the weak link.

 

[Maxx]

You’re paying $200 for the battery and $300 for the development of a translator between the 12V lithium battery and the Lightning.

Some of it is probably for sensors that report to the app and switches that allows the app to turn stuff on and off. I am not sure that is a positive thing since every additional complexity is another point that could break it.

https://www.ohmmu.com/product-page/12v-lithium-battery-for-ford-f-150-lightning

Without a Li BMS on-board, a Li battery would not be compatible though.

It is interesting that on their instruction video, they don't do anything to retain the memory or say anything about resetting the BMS but they have added that on their web site after

 

[Maxx]

$160 for a 12v 50ah LFP battery (will it fit?), been using one in my work van to run a compressor, 4 of them power my riding lawnmower that were switched from AGM. Brought the machine to life compared but that's another story. Then I have a boat load more I run my house with when needed, that's a 51.2v system. All LFP batteries have an internal BMS.

Also have a Li battery in my motorcycle since 2012 and still cranks the bike like new. If I can make it fit, I'm pretty sure it will, I'm replacing with the 50ah and never worry about it again, they carry a 10 year warranty.

If you do use it and nothing blows up, let us know what exactly you used.

 

[Maxx]

Not worried one bit, they don't explode like traditional li batteries can and have in the past. I keep 43kWh worth in my attached garage I power my home with when needed. Here's the current battery I will use when the time comes, and it will, unless they come out with something even better. I know batteries all too well. Nothing special about Absorbed Glass Mat batteries, it's still a lead acid battery with those mats between the plates, that's it.

The LFP batteries don't care if you run them flat and you can't over charge them due to the built in BMS. My only concern is space, I haven't poked around in the battery cavity to see if it will or not. There are other brand LFP batteries made likely using the same exact brand of cell and in different size configurations.

I didn't mean the battery physically blowing up. I meant Lightning BMS getting confused about when to charge the battery, how often and at what voltage.

Frankly I am surprised Ford didn't at least have the option for Li-Ion since they built the Lightning after Tesla had already switched to Li-Ion 12V. 98 KWh of of Li-Ion in it's belly and cheeping out on a small important one up front makes no sense.

Thanks for sharing the details. Let us know if you find out anything new about how Lightning talks to this battery vs the old one.

 

[El Duderino]

Some context might help provide color to this conversation.

Looking at individual cells nominal and 12v cells in series voltages can help explain how different or similar a lead acid, lithium iron phosphate, and lithium ion batteries are.

Nominal cell voltages:

Lead acid = 2.1 v
Lfp = 3.2 v
Lithium ion = 3.6 v

Nominal voltages of cells in series to fit a 12 volt battery application:

Lead acid (6) cells = 12.6 v
Lfp (4) cells = 12.8 v
Li (4) cells = 14.4 v

So lithium ion is quite a bit different than lead acid. But Lfp is pretty close to lead acid when comparing the whole battery voltage in series.

Without getting into the specifics of Ford's lead acid charging algorithm, you can at least see how a 12v Lfp battery charged with a 12v Lead acid charging setup would be close enough to not necessitate changes to charging voltages.

This post isn't the whole enchilada per se, but I am trying to illustrate that lithium iron phosphate 12v batteries aren't radically different than your standard lead acid 12v battery we have all known forever. The guts are different, cell balancing is more important in Lfp, but 12.6v vs 12.8v nominal is only 1.6% difference in amount...

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