Does a replaced battery module extend the powertrain warranty?

[MountainAlive]

I’m just curious for those who have had to have a battery module replaced, does it extend your EV powertrain warranty beyond the normal 8yr 100k mile period?

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[TaxmanHog]

No, the 8 year / 100,000 measure is absolute regardless of service events

 

[MountainAlive]

No, the 8 year / 100,000 measure is absolute regardless of service events

That’s unfortunate. But thanks for quickly confirming. So far ?my battery has been ok but had been wondering about this scenario.

 

[tedshred]

Lucky me. I have 2 new ones out of the 9

 

[USA EV]

Lucky me. I have 2 new ones out of the 9

True, the warranty isn't extended, but the life of the modules should be. For example, if some are replaced in year 7 even if they were refurbished they should last a good long time, hopefully!

 

[GoodSam]

even if they were refurbished they should last a good long time, hopefully!

I would think a refurbished unit would have all new cell pouches, just the aluminum module (array?) box would be re-used.

 

[Yellow Buddy]

Lucky me. I have 2 new ones out of the 9

Only 7 more to go!

 

[Yellow Buddy]

No, the 8 year / 100,000 measure is absolute regardless of service events

Does the service event kick in any time specific to the repaired item or event? Maybe not the entire pack but the specific module?

I know on my Tesla for example I had something replaced days before the warranty expiration and the new part was covered for 1 year from installation. Idk if that’s manufacture specific or required by regulation or something.

 

[TaxmanHog]

Does the service event kick in any time specific to the repaired item or event? Maybe not the entire pack but the specific module?

I know on my Tesla for example I had something replaced days before the warranty expiration and the new part was covered for 1 year from installation. Idk if that’s manufacture specific or required by regulation or something.

Not certain, haven't looked at the language, but it leads to a fair policy that a replacement module going TU the day after or 364th day after being swapped should carry it's own warranty aside from the pack as a whole or the other modules that reached 8 years and one day w/o issues.

 

[TaxmanHog]

I would think a refurbished unit would have all new cell pouches, just the aluminum module (array?) box would be re-used.

It's my understanding based on commentary of Munro & Associates engineers as well as observations by @MickeyAO that "Cells" CAN NOT be swapped within a "Module". If the suspect module has defects from manufacturing or grossly out of tolerance cell voltages, then the entire module is scrapped for reclamation.

Regarding a "refurbished" pack, it would seem that on the occasion that entire trucks are scrapped, that entire packs would be evaluated for healthy and unhealthy "modules" saving the best aged modules for regrouping into a complete pack assembly to be sold on the market as a complete pack swap. I do not think the Lightning production cycle has matured to that phase of recycle / reuse, I could be wrong but that's when we'll see such a scenario occur.

Just my common sense point of view regarding production & process, what actually happens in the Ford battery pack plants isn't well publicized yet.

 

[Texas Dan]

Based on the reported battery pack replacement of one percent per year, our battery packs have a life expectancy (50 percent replacement) of maybe 50 years. I have had one module replaced but I expect this was due to a defect and I expect the other modules to hold true to the statistics. I think it’s too soon for most of us even to be thinking about replacing battery packs.

 

[Yellow Buddy]

Based on the reported battery pack replacement of one percent per year, our battery packs have a life expectancy (50 percent replacement) of maybe 50 years. I have had one module replaced but I expect this was due to a defect and I expect the other modules to hold true to the statistics. I think it’s too soon for most of us even to be thinking about replacing battery packs.

I think assuming a linear degradation may be overly simplistic. I know on my Tesla I saw a bit of a bell curve with pretty big degradation at first, followed by leveling off and then continuation later on. This is a different chemistry so it could be better or worse than that, but Idk that I would count on it being a steady loss.

The extremely positive thing about our trucks is the modular nature and the ability for easy swaps. If we get enough of these things on the road, I don't think it's unreasonable to expect aftermarket packs to start cropping up in the future.

I'm not an EE, but I can't help but wondering if in the future an aftermarket part could be created and packaged with a DC charger to allow us to charge at 800V speeds. Higher density chemistry's might be able to be swapped in as long as the voltage and BMS is programmed correctly and we'd still have all the positives of...well, an F150.

 

[chl]

I think assuming a linear degradation may be overly simplistic. I know on my Tesla I saw a bit of a bell curve with pretty big degradation at first, followed by leveling off and then continuation later on. This is a different chemistry so it could be better or worse than that, but Idk that I would count on it being a steady loss.

The extremely positive thing about our trucks is the modular nature and the ability for easy swaps. If we get enough of these things on the road, I don't think it's unreasonable to expect aftermarket packs to start cropping up in the future.

I'm not an EE, but I can't help but wondering if in the future an aftermarket part could be created and packaged with a DC charger to allow us to charge at 800V speeds. Higher density chemistry's might be able to be swapped in as long as the voltage and BMS is programmed correctly and we'd still have all the positives of...well, an F150.

1) Yes, the degradation curve is the way you described it in the first paragraph from everything I have read anyway - steep then levels off. Why? It's rather technical but...(from an AI search result but seems right to me - I'm an MSEE):

"During the first few charge/discharge cycles, a protective layer called the solid-electrolyte interface (SEI) forms on the battery's anode. This initial formation process consumes a small amount of lithium ions, leading to a slight but noticeable decrease in the battery's capacity.

Once the SEI layer has formed properly, it helps to protect the battery and slow down further degradation processes. This is why the degradation rate tends to decrease after the initial period.

Batteries naturally degrade over time due to chemical reactions that occur even when they're not in use. This contributes to the initial degradation and continues throughout the battery's lifespan.

While the initial degradation is a normal process, factors like high temperatures, extreme states of charge (too high or too low), and frequent use of fast charging can accelerate the initial capacity fade. ..."

2) As for battery swapping, there is a lot of potential for that, it is more and more widely done in China for example by Nio and others, and AMPLE can retrofit many vehicle to be battery swapping capable (swap performed in 5 minutes they say). https://ample.com/

3) The thing/issue with going from a 400V to 800V system is mostly the charging hardware inside and outside of the vehicle, and the battery design. Arcing, for example, is more likely the higher your voltage gets so that has to be considered and handled. Insulation for higher voltages has to be better/different. Safety is also a factor with higher voltage ("DANGER HIGH VOLTAGE"). So really there couldn't be an sort of aftermarket item like an adapter to turn a 400V vehicle into an 800V one because no adapter can change the internal structure of the vehicle wiring, battery, etc.

Higher voltages necessitate thicker insulation to prevent arcing and short circuits.

"Materials like Kapton and Nomex tapes are used for insulating high-voltage components.
800V systems may require more expensive components, like Silicon Carbide (SiC) based power electronics, to manage the higher voltages efficiently. SiC allows for higher switching frequencies and lower energy losses compared to traditional silicon.
800V systems require more physical space to avoid arcing and ensure safety, as higher voltages pose a greater risk of electric shock."

Replacing the battery, and maybe all/most/a lot of the electrical components/wiring/etc. to go from 400V to 800V would be pretty expensive I'd guess.

But maybe the biggest limiting factor is not the vehicle design but infrastructure and the ability of utilities to provide the extra energy - higher voltage means faster charging which means potentially more energy transferred in a shorter time (that is, more power required - power = energy transferred per time unit).

A lot of interesting articles about going from 400 to 800 online, e.g.:
https://greencarscompare.com/blog/the-rise-of-800v-ev-architecture-benefits-and-constraints/

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