Generac 6853 trips truck GFCI

[bmwhitetx]

FURTHER UPDATE:

After running on the Lightning for a while I turned the service panel 50A breaker for the GENERAC feed back on - did not trip the Lightning, but...

With the 50A GENERAC feed breaker ON, when I used the rocker switch to switch back to utility, the Lightning reported a ground fault.

So now I am wondering if the solenoid switch is a make-before-break switch?

That would make for a smoother transition from utility to standby generator and back, but it will trip the GFCI in the Lightning.

I haven't tried manually switching with the yellow rod between utility and Lightning when the 50A GENERAC feed breaker is on and the Lightning is connected.

If that trips the Lightning breaker then the answer is it is a make-before-break switch.

I'll try that another day - I closed everything back up and need to do other things today.

If by make before break, you mean that the utility and generator/truck hots would be briefly in parallel during the switchover - then absolutely not! They will be out of sync and sparks will fly.

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[hturnerfamily]

with the success of finding out my own 'Ground Fault' demons with my CAMPER, I'm sure that there can be situations where we might think there is nothing left in the 'loop' to cause any problem, when there still might be: for instance...

my CAMPER's problem was due, mainly, to a burnt-out Electric water heater. And, even though I knew the water heater was not working, on electric power, and I had it's circuit breaker OFF, this did NOT remove the 'loop', or connection, since the Neutral and the Ground were STILL connected to the panel. The truck sensed this, and, did not like it.
The solution was to completely DISCONNECT the black POWER wire at the water heater's element. This removed the 'ground fault' issue. Something with that connection was still allowing even the slightest trickle back to the truck.

It's interesting that while we don't think we have anything in the 'loop' that could be any problem, it's that little 'trickle' that can create the whole issue.

by the way, also, 'Ground Fault' means the truck has determined a ground fault safety issue, but when you EXCEED the power available from the truck, you TRIP the breaker, or, better yet, if you are referring to the BED OUTLETS, you POP THE FUSE - each 'side' of power has it's own FUSE RESET BUTTON. This may not be clear when you lose power, but you have to reset one or both of these, and then RESET the ProPower, the GREEN BUTTON in the bed, or reset it from the truck's screen, to restart. There are no physical 'breakers' to trip, or reset.

 

[chl]

If by make before break, you mean that the utility and generator/truck hots would be briefly in parallel during the switchover - then absolutely not! They will be out of sync and sparks will fly.

Yes I take your point.

So, I looked at my post and realized it was mis-written when I said hots were connected. Connecting the utility and the generator simultaneously for a split second should only happen (safely) in a closed transition transfer switch which I guess was somewhere in the back of my mind.

What I should have said is...

Perhaps there is a momentary connecting of the utility neutral and the lightning neutral AND when switching, if the GENERAC service panel breaker is closed there is a small moment of load current when the two bonded neutrals are connected causing the GFCI to trip.

I am just speculating out loud.

Whatever is causing the trip when using the rocker switch, it does not trip the Lightning when the GENERAC utility feed breaker is open.

So it has to be related to there being utility power provided to the GENERAC switch.

My speculation is some current change is detected by the Lightning GFCI on the Neutral, somehow.

I am going to think about it some more.

 

[chl]

with the success of finding out my own 'Ground Fault' demons with my CAMPER, I'm sure that there can be situations where we might think there is nothing left in the 'loop' to cause any problem, when there still might be: for instance...

my CAMPER's problem was due, mainly, to a burnt-out Electric water heater. And, even though I knew the water heater was not working, on electric power, and I had it's circuit breaker OFF, this did NOT remove the 'loop', or connection, since the Neutral and the Ground were STILL connected to the panel. The truck sensed this, and, did not like it.
The solution was to completely DISCONNECT the black POWER wire at the water heater's element. This removed the 'ground fault' issue. Something with that connection was still allowing even the slightest trickle back to the truck.

It's interesting that while we don't think we have anything in the 'loop' that could be any problem, it's that little 'trickle' that can create the whole issue.

by the way, also, 'Ground Fault' means the truck has determined a ground fault safety issue, but when you EXCEED the power available from the truck, you TRIP the breaker, or, better yet, if you are referring to the BED OUTLETS, you POP THE FUSE - each 'side' of power has it's own FUSE RESET BUTTON. This may not be clear when you lose power, but you have to reset one or both of these, and then RESET the ProPower, the GREEN BUTTON in the bed, or reset it from the truck's screen, to restart. There are no physical 'breakers' to trip, or reset.

Yes, that would be the case, except that not using the rocker switch which means switching manually with the utility power off does not cause a GFCI fault, but even with all the loads off, switching with the rocker still induces a GFCI trip if the utility power is present at the GENERAC switch.

Also, after switching with the rocker switch and resetting the GFCI, it all works perfectly with no ground faults.

 

[chl]

If it weren't for the fact that this is happening to at least two other people with GENERAC transfer switches and the Lightning Pro Power GFCI output when using the GENERAC rocker switch, I would think I had something wired wrong, e.g., attached to a load neutral of a circuit whose hot had not been transferred to the GENERAC by mistake.

But just to be certain I did double check all my connections after the GFCI trip and found no mistake.

PS: one of them said they had a licensed electrician install theirs and he put a call into GENERAC to find out what the issue was.

 

[chl]

Just did a voltage check inside the GENERAC as follows:

1) utility power is applied to the GENERAC (service panel feed breaker is on)

2) no loads in the GENERAC are on

3) Lightning is NOT connected to generator input (should be zero volts on all generator pins at all times

4) inside the GENERAC on the switching part: connected a voltmeter between the neutral of the generator connection to the switching part and a hot of the generator connection - no load on the generator inputs, just the voltmeter.

Result: when manually (using the yellow rod) switching from utility to generator, I noted a small momentary voltage appeared on the neutral wrt to either generator hot connection.

I was using an analog meter on the 300VAC scale and as best I can tell, it was somewhere under a 10 volt spike (below the 1 on the 0 to 10 scale x 30), but significant enough to be noticeable on the meter, I estimate below 10 volts.

Also, with NO voltage applied to the GENERAC utility input, there was NO voltage spike on the neutral wrt to the hots, therefore the solenoid in the transfer switch does not appear to be the culprit source of the voltage spike unless...

With utility power present the solenoid is energized so that even when manually moved (not using the rocker switch), it can induce a voltage in the generator input leads as noted. I did not test to see if that was the case however.

So in conclusion:

1) it may or may not be the solenoid inducing a voltage onto the wires when the utility voltage is present and

2) some voltage (from the utility input to the GENERAC or the solenoid) is being transferred momentarily to the generator input leads such that there is a voltage on the neutral with respect to the hots, which would cause the Lightning GFCI to trip.

BTW, I checked that in generator position there is NO continuity (connection) between the neutrals and the ground bus inside the GENERAC to be sure there was no wiring mistake.

QUESTION:
Is this momentary voltage on the generator leads a known issue to GENERAC? It is enough to trip our GFCI on the Lightning so it should be.

 

[chl]

Anyway...the workaround is to reset the Lightning breaker after the rocker switch in the GENERAC during switchover trips it.

 

[chl]

BTW, how many watts did my Lightning provide when I had the GENERAC 10 circuits connected?

I had most of my lights on (mostly LEDs one FL) inside my house, and my computer, and ceiling fans, a TV set, and vampire draws from off tvs etc. and I was barely using 1000 watts, if the ProPower indication on my truck screen is accurate.

That surprised me.

If I ran the microwave on high that would be another 1000 watts.
At worst the coffee pot would probably be another 1000 watts.

I could go a long time on Lightning power.

Of course not connected are the:

40A AC, 40A range, 30A hot water heater, 30A hot tub, or 30A dryer...or 2 EVSEs a 30A Ge Watt Station and a 48A FCSP (the most my truck will pull from it).

But with coffee, toast, TV, computers and Internet, what else do I really need?

 

[chl]

Anyway...the workaround is to reset the Lightning breaker after the rocker switch in the GENERAC during switchover trips it.

Of course, when the utility power is out, there (probably) will be no issue using the rocker switch.

I'm beginning to think the switch in the GENERAC transfer switch is NOT a break before make switch and therefore there is some arcing going on during switching, not a good thing in a transfer switch!

AI sums it up:
---
Arcing in a transfer switch occurs when an electrical current jumps across a gap in the contacts, creating a spark or arc. This can happen during switching operations, especially when transferring between power sources like utility and generator power. Arcing can damage the transfer switch's contacts, generate heat, and potentially lead to an arc flash, a dangerous electrical explosion...

Switching Operations:
Transferring between power sources (utility to generator or vice versa) inherently involves switching contacts, which can create a momentary gap where arcing can occur


Voltage Imbalances:
Significant voltage differences between power sources can also contribute to arcing

Quick-Break Mechanisms:
Transfer switches with quick-break mechanisms (where contacts open and close rapidly) can minimize the duration of arcing, reducing its impact.

---
My old Connecticut Electric manual transfer switch has break before make switches for each circuit (each is a 3-position switch: Utili-ON, ALL-OFF, Generator-ON, although they are not labeled as such that is what the positions are).

To check if there is a break before make in the GENERAC I'll have to use a couple continuity checkers during switching manually (with the power off of course) to see if at any point they are both showing continuity during the switching.

It might be hard to catch, maybe I should video it so I can look at it in slo-mo?

 

[chl]

In view of the possibility of arcing, I think I will always open the GENERAC feed breaker in the service panel BEFORE transferring to the Lightning or other bonded generator input.

And when utility power comes back, manually open the Lightning breaker BEFORE ransferring back to utility power.

 

[carys98]

Of course, when the utility power is out, there (probably) will be no issue using the rocker switch.

I'm beginning to think the switch in the GENERAC transfer switch is NOT a break before make switch and therefore there is some arcing going on during switching, not a good thing in a transfer switch!

AI sums it up:
---
Arcing in a transfer switch occurs when an electrical current jumps across a gap in the contacts, creating a spark or arc. This can happen during switching operations, especially when transferring between power sources like utility and generator power. Arcing can damage the transfer switch's contacts, generate heat, and potentially lead to an arc flash, a dangerous electrical explosion...

Switching Operations:
Transferring between power sources (utility to generator or vice versa) inherently involves switching contacts, which can create a momentary gap where arcing can occur


Voltage Imbalances:
Significant voltage differences between power sources can also contribute to arcing

Quick-Break Mechanisms:
Transfer switches with quick-break mechanisms (where contacts open and close rapidly) can minimize the duration of arcing, reducing its impact.

---
My old Connecticut Electric manual transfer switch has break before make switches for each circuit (each is a 3-position switch: Utili-ON, ALL-OFF, Generator-ON, although they are not labeled as such that is what the positions are).

To check if there is a break before make in the GENERAC I'll have to use a couple continuity checkers during switching manually (with the power off of course) to see if at any point they are both showing continuity during the switching.

It might be hard to catch, maybe I should video it so I can look at it in slo-mo?

I‘ve thought about adding a ferrite to the ground lead in the generator inlet. I’m not sure if I have any and I’ve been too lazy to dig around the junk in my garage to look for one. It’s also laziness since if it the switch trips the truck then all I have to do is take two steps, reach in the window and click reset on the screen.

 

[chl]

I‘ve thought about adding a ferrite to the ground lead in the generator inlet. I’m not sure if I have any and I’ve been too lazy to dig around the junk in my garage to look for one. It’s also laziness since if it the switch trips the truck then all I have to do is take two steps, reach in the window and click reset on the screen.

Yea, that might dampen it enough if it is basically HF noise.

But I think the Lightning probably would still detect the voltage spike, it seemed to be around a 10V spike, though I was using an analog meter on the 300V scale so it's a guess-timate. So it was more like a voltage surge than HF noise.

Easy enough I think to just be sure the GENERAC is not getting Utility power when switching over which worked when I tried it.

Switching back when Utility power was restored (by me) also triggered a ground fault warning and trip in the Lightning, but it could be shut down first before switching the GENERAC back to utility to avoid that.

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