Is charging in cold safe?

[Maxx]

I just read this post and it totally freaked me out:

https://electronics.stackexchange.c...s-in-cold-temperatures-would-harm-them#289735

He says charging bellow freezing even once can permanently mess up your battery and in addition to loss of life and capacity, increase chance of failure or fire.

Does anyone know what happens when I plug in my portable charger bellow freezing? Does BMS heat up the battery first and then start charging it or start charging immediately and screw up stuff in there?

If I start charging at 30 amp when it is above freezing and temps drop bellow zero at night, will the act of charging generate enough heat to keep things toasty or will the battery temp drop into forbidden zone while charging and things get messed up?

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[wighty]

I'm just guessing here, but I'm willing to bet that if this were true then Ford already takes care of it by heating the battery if the pack temperature is that low.

 

[Joneii]

I can tell you my experience is that the truck charges on the mobile charger until the pack gets cold, then the mobile charger throws a yellow fault light and you get a message that the truck failed to charge as scheduled. I’ve had this happen twice now. Once at -18F and again this weekend at +18F. After several hours at those temps the battery gets cold. The truck will keep it above the minimum safe temperature, but it may still be too cold to charge from a low amp charger. After a night at -23F and the mobile charger refusing to work, I saw the battery temperature display turn amber and it was pegged on the minimum line. My SOC had decreased about 8% overnight, so the thermal management system was protecting the battery. I wish the system was smart enough to recognize when it has power available and to use that power to hold the battery at a temperature that would allow any left over watts to flow into the pack. It seems like it protects the pack from the bare minimum temperature, but that doesn’t help with a slow overnight charger. I have not seen this problem with the FCSP, only the 30 amp mobile charger. As a side note, there was a Tesla plugged into the same 120v outlet as my Ford mobile charger and when I went out to see why my truck wasn’t charging, I noticed that the Tesla was charging just fine on it’s mobile charger. I suspect the Tesla thermal management holds the pack temps higher to ensure charging is possible even if it only adds a tiny bit.

These are just my observations and theories. It is possible that I have a defective mobile charger, so I’d love to know if anyone else has had this issue.

 

[Maxx]

I can tell you my experience is that the truck charges on the mobile charger until the pack gets cold, then the mobile charger throws a yellow fault light and you get a message that the truck failed to charge as scheduled. I’ve had this happen twice now. Once at -18F and again this weekend at +18F. After several hours at those temps the battery gets cold. The truck will keep it above the minimum safe temperature, but it may still be too cold to charge from a low amp charger. After a night at -23F and the mobile charger refusing to work, I saw the battery temperature display turn amber and it was pegged on the minimum line. My SOC had decreased about 8% overnight, so the thermal management system was protecting the battery. I wish the system was smart enough to recognize when it has power available and to use that power to hold the battery at a temperature that would allow any left over watts to flow into the pack. It seems like it protects the pack from the bare minimum temperature, but that doesn’t help with a slow overnight charger. I have not seen this problem with the FCSP, only the 30 amp mobile charger. As a side note, there was a Tesla plugged into the same 120v outlet as my Ford mobile charger and when I went out to see why my truck wasn’t charging, I noticed that the Tesla was charging just fine on it’s mobile charger. I suspect the Tesla thermal management holds the pack temps higher to ensure charging is possible even if it only adds a tiny bit.

These are just my observations and theories. It is possible that I have a defective mobile charger, so I’d love to know if anyone else has had this issue.

Thanks for sharing.

Did you see the 8% drop at the same temperature? My understanding is, all Your juice is not available when pack gets cold. Trying to see if any of the 8% was used to heat up the pack or all of it due to drop in temp.

Tesla phantom loss is more significant than Lightning. Some of ti may be for electronics and data collection for mothership and some of it for BMS.

I don’t mind a bit of inconvenience if there is no damage to the battery. I rather not to lose power for automated tasks when the truck is not running but if the battery is going to become unsafe or lose range fast, then I don’t mind spending a few KWhs protecting it.

 

[lightspeed]

120v @ 20a is just too little to keep the battery warm and charge it at the same time when the temps are that low.

But if you use a higher wattage power source, the BMS will warm the battery before charging and won't let you damage the battery.

 

[Jim Lewis]

He says charging bellow freezing even once can permanently mess up your battery and in addition to loss of life and capacity, increase chance of failure or fire.

That's what I've read in the past about phone batteries, too. The lithium plating is for real. It's said that the ideal temperature for charging a phone battery is something like 55 deg F to 77 deg F, and I always try to keep my phone in that temperature range when charging it - my ProClipUSA car mount is in front of an AC vent in my Honda, for instance! It's much harder to keep a truck in what might be its "ideal" temperature range for charging, for sure.

 

[Maxx]

That's what I've read in the past about phone batteries, too. The lithium plating is for real. It's said that the ideal temperature for charging a phone battery is something like 55 deg F to 77 deg F, and I always try to keep my phone in that temperature range when charging it - my ProClipUSA car mount is in front of an AC vent in my Honda, for instance! It's much harder to keep a truck in what might be its "ideal" temperature range for charging, for sure.

Yup. I don’t have a garage. Before reading this guys post, I was picking cold nights to charge thinking, charging will help keep the battery warm but now I am thinking I may have done some damage already. We have not had any of those Canadian nights in my neighborhood this winter but we definitely had many bellow freezing nights.

 

[adoublee]

Yup. I don’t have a garage. Before reading this guys post, I was picking cold nights to charge thinking, charging will help keep the battery warm but now I am thinking I may have done some damage already. We have not had any of those Canadian nights in my neighborhood this winter but we definitely had many bellow freezing nights.

You have not damaged the battery. You think Ford would allow that? The cells are heated sufficiently to take the charge. There is a big difference between damaging a "raw" lithium ion cell, and ruining one with a warranty-worthy bms ensuring you don't jack the battery. Just relax, only high speed DCFC when you need too.

 

[Joneii]

Thanks for sharing.

Did you see the 8% drop at the same temperature? My understanding is, all Your juice is not available when pack gets cold. Trying to see if any of the 8% was used to heat up the pack or all of it due to drop in temp.

Tesla phantom loss is more significant than Lightning. Some of ti may be for electronics and data collection for mothership and some of it for BMS.

I don’t mind a bit of inconvenience if there is no damage to the battery. I rather not to lose power for automated tasks when the truck is not running but if the battery is going to become unsafe or lose range fast, then I don’t mind spending a few KWhs protecting it.

8% was a reduction in state of charge. The vehicle also reduces the predicted range when it is cold, but it does not reduce the state of charge unless it is actually using that energy to warm the battery or do some other function. So, I assume that most of that 8% went to warm the battery.

 

[Maxx]

8% was a reduction in state of charge. The vehicle also reduces the predicted range when it is cold, but it does not reduce the state of charge unless it is actually using that energy to warm the battery or do some other function. So, I assume that most of that 8% went to warm the battery.

That makes me feel a bit better.

 

[BennyTheBeaver]

I can tell you my experience is that the truck charges on the mobile charger until the pack gets cold, then the mobile charger throws a yellow fault light and you get a message that the truck failed to charge as scheduled. I’ve had this happen twice now. Once at -18F and again this weekend at +18F. After several hours at those temps the battery gets cold. The truck will keep it above the minimum safe temperature, but it may still be too cold to charge from a low amp charger. After a night at -23F and the mobile charger refusing to work, I saw the battery temperature display turn amber and it was pegged on the minimum line. My SOC had decreased about 8% overnight, so the thermal management system was protecting the battery. I wish the system was smart enough to recognize when it has power available and to use that power to hold the battery at a temperature that would allow any left over watts to flow into the pack. It seems like it protects the pack from the bare minimum temperature, but that doesn’t help with a slow overnight charger. I have not seen this problem with the FCSP, only the 30 amp mobile charger. As a side note, there was a Tesla plugged into the same 120v outlet as my Ford mobile charger and when I went out to see why my truck wasn’t charging, I noticed that the Tesla was charging just fine on it’s mobile charger. I suspect the Tesla thermal management holds the pack temps higher to ensure charging is possible even if it only adds a tiny bit.

These are just my observations and theories. It is possible that I have a defective mobile charger, so I’d love to know if anyone else has had this issue.

It's probably the Mobile Charger. I charge in sub-freezing often, no issues on my Emporia. Those Ford Mobile Chargers are not the highest quality...

 

[MickeyAO]

Charging a cell below 25C will induce lithium plating as will charging at high C rates at any temperature. Fortunately, the BMS will warm up the battery before charging and will derate charging before it gets into the conditions that will cause lithium plating.

 

[1Jetpilot]

after I reach my targeted % should I keep it plugged in? Is there any benefit for keeping it plugged in? If I want to precondition, I would just plug it back in so do I really need to keep it plugged in?

 

[TaxmanHog]

after I reach my targeted % should I keep it plugged in? Is there any benefit for keeping it plugged in? If I want to precondition, I would just plug it back in so do I really need to keep it plugged in?

I leave mine plugged in with exception of passing electrical storms, then I make it a point to leave unplugged until the risk passes, otherwise no worries leaving it plugged in overnight, especially if your garage or parking area is a distance away in cold wintery conditions.

 

[mb0220]

120v @ 20a is just too little to keep the battery warm and charge it at the same time when the temps are that low.

But if you use a higher wattage power source, the BMS will warm the battery before charging and won't let you damage the battery.

I could be wrong, but I think at 120v the mobile EVSE only draws 12 amps, the intent being to keep it from tripping a standard 15 amp breaker.
The annoying part is that it should be enough to keep the pack warm even if there's next to nothing left to add energy to the battery.

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