Sold my Pro due to high energy price in MA and I drive too far

[broncoaz]

Let’s try to keep the politics out of this thread so it doesn’t get closed, please. For whatever reason Mods on most forums have no tolerance for it anymore. I appreciate the video and how it pertains to the conversation, but someone else may feel the need to spout off one way or another and get my thread closed.

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[LightningShow]

The lower electric rates quoted for other parts of the country may soon change too. Here in NH, my bill last month jumped over 60% from the prior year with similar usage. I understand that most other New England states (and FL where I also spend time) have seen similar jumps due to greatly increased fuel costs for the utilities. It takes time for the regulatory agencies to approve the increases. But I wouldn't be surprised to see the other states "catch up" over the next few months.

A big part is that we import more natural gas than most regions and we're more reliant on natural gas than most regions (as opposed to coal, or other sources). Another big part is that we have poor interconnectivity with other grids. There's a big project to connect the Quebec grid to New England but it's been held up in red tape and politics. That would lower prices immediately and greatly increase the amount of renewable energy used in the region since it would be essentially all hydro.

There was some recent good news on that project, depending on your perspective:
https://www.necn.com/news/local/mai...ew-life-into-1-billion-power-project/2814918/

 

[data003]

For shame, you literally went from the cleanest vehicle to the dirtiest, made worst by how many miles you drive. You’re probably unaware a large chunk of your power comes from Seabrook which is nuclear.

I really don’t understand why you bothered to start this thread. Clearly your use case needed an ER and yet you went on to complain about how electricity is too expensive (yet still cheaper than gas!) and how it’s a primary reason to sell the truck.

 

[broncoaz]

For shame, you literally went from the cleanest vehicle to the dirtiest, made worst by how many miles you drive. You’re probably unaware a large chunk of your power comes from Seabrook which is nuclear.

I really don’t understand why you bothered to start this thread. Clearly your use case needed an ER and yet you went on to complain about how electricity is too expensive (yet still cheaper than gas!) and how it’s a primary reason to sell the truck.

I started this thread to share my experience with others.

I’m operating a fleet of 150 vehicles and need to balance fuel costs and environmental concerns with production. Without production there is no profit and eventually no company. As a company solution the $76K ER XLT was a non starter compared to a $48K average price on ICE trucks. I didn’t have a good enough relationship with Ford at a fleet level to have ordered ER Pro trucks in 2022. I purchased my Lightning Pro as a test vehicle, with the intention of moving more vehicles to EV as inventory allowed if the economic aspects made sense and wouldn’t negatively impact production. I’m still very interested in EV vehicles for the fleet, but I’m going to push off implementation a year or two and see how the market develops.

I went into this experiment with the best intentions but it became clear after the first 1000 miles that the economics weren’t penciling out and would only decline in winter. If the price of electricity were lower and the resulting savings were significant enough I would’ve forced the issue and kept my truck long term. Saving 20% in fuel costs over my existing work truck in ideal conditions didn’t offset the EV’s shortcomings for my use, and would negatively impact production if I deployed them elsewhere.

As for my diesel truck being “the dirtiest”, I believe that a new 1500 diesel truck with a fully functional emissions system averaging 27 mpg is better for the environment than a new gas truck averaging 17 mpg. Using 37% less fuel in the first place that has to be drilled/transported/refined has to offset any difference in the tailpipe emissions for diesel vs gas. The days of diesels spewing out black clouds PM-10 pollution are over. I deployed 10 of these 1500 ecodiesel Silverados into the fleet last year which reduced our fuel consumption by 8417 gallons.

 

[data003]

I started this thread to share my experience with others.

I’m operating a fleet of 150 vehicles and need to balance fuel costs and environmental concerns with production. Without production there is no profit and eventually no company. As a company solution the $76K ER XLT was a non starter compared to a $48K average price on ICE trucks. I didn’t have a good enough relationship with Ford at a fleet level to have ordered ER Pro trucks in 2022. I purchased my Lightning Pro as a test vehicle, with the intention of moving more vehicles to EV as inventory allowed if the economic aspects made sense and wouldn’t negatively impact production. I’m still very interested in EV vehicles for the fleet, but I’m going to push off implementation a year or two and see how the market develops.

I went into this experiment with the best intentions but it became clear after the first 1000 miles that the economics weren’t penciling out and would only decline in winter. If the price of electricity were lower and the resulting savings were significant enough I would’ve forced the issue and kept my truck long term. Saving 20% in fuel costs over my existing work truck in ideal conditions didn’t offset the EV’s shortcomings for my use, and would negatively impact production if I deployed them elsewhere.

As for my diesel truck being “the dirtiest”, I believe that a new 1500 diesel truck with a fully functional emissions system averaging 27 mpg is better for the environment than a new gas truck averaging 17 mpg. Using 37% less fuel in the first place that has to be drilled/transported/refined has to offset any difference in the tailpipe emissions for diesel vs gas. The days of diesels spewing out black clouds PM-10 pollution are over. I deployed 10 of these 1500 ecodiesel Silverados into the fleet last year which reduced our fuel consumption by 8417 gallons.

This is far more insightful than your original post. Clearly the economics aren’t working out yet for your use case.

It’s apparent that it was economically not viable to purchase ER trucks and the SR didn’t have enough range for you. Featuring the cost of electricity in the title of this thread is misleading and ultimately mattered very little, as you were still saving money over gas.

I’ll grant you modern diesels aren’t as bad as they were. Saying they are roughly equivalent to gas trucks isn’t exactly high praise though.

 

[antimatterparticle]

I started this thread to share my experience with others.

I’m operating a fleet of 150 vehicles and need to balance fuel costs and environmental concerns with production. Without production there is no profit and eventually no company. As a company solution the $76K ER XLT was a non starter compared to a $48K average price on ICE trucks. I didn’t have a good enough relationship with Ford at a fleet level to have ordered ER Pro trucks in 2022. I purchased my Lightning Pro as a test vehicle, with the intention of moving more vehicles to EV as inventory allowed if the economic aspects made sense and wouldn’t negatively impact production. I’m still very interested in EV vehicles for the fleet, but I’m going to push off implementation a year or two and see how the market develops.

I went into this experiment with the best intentions but it became clear after the first 1000 miles that the economics weren’t penciling out and would only decline in winter. If the price of electricity were lower and the resulting savings were significant enough I would’ve forced the issue and kept my truck long term. Saving 20% in fuel costs over my existing work truck in ideal conditions didn’t offset the EV’s shortcomings for my use, and would negatively impact production if I deployed them elsewhere.

As for my diesel truck being “the dirtiest”, I believe that a new 1500 diesel truck with a fully functional emissions system averaging 27 mpg is better for the environment than a new gas truck averaging 17 mpg. Using 37% less fuel in the first place that has to be drilled/transported/refined has to offset any difference in the tailpipe emissions for diesel vs gas. The days of diesels spewing out black clouds PM-10 pollution are over. I deployed 10 of these 1500 ecodiesel Silverados into the fleet last year which reduced our fuel consumption by 8417 gallons.

I think your math is wrong. Plus, if you are really running a business you should consult with your CPA.

mileage is deductible, but also your electricity becomes an expense so you can double dip.

Your topic is based on your opinion, but other companies know how to make this work.

this is not about being environmentally friendly etc, with the right incentives and strategies you could be saving a Shit load of money.

how much does Def run you? How much is the maintenance on those diesel trucks?

what is the maintenance on the Lightning?

If you are truly here with good intentions, I’d suggest you go to a tax professional because there is a lot of money you are leaving on the table.

 

[FirstF150InCasco]

I sold my 2022 Lightning Pro today. I really liked almost everything about the truck, but the cost of utilities in eastern Massachusetts made the truck less appealing for me. When I was running cost estimates on the Lighting I was using 14.9 cents per kWh as my baseline electricity cost, I had asked my wife for the number off the bill and she gave me the cost of electricity, not including the cost of distribution. Upon reviewing the bill after taking delivery of my truck in September I found that we are paying 34.1 cents per kWh for electricity and distribution, our bill for 941 kWh was $320.80. When I lived in AZ I was paying about 10 cents per kWh, my survey here showed 68.7% of respondents were under 15 cents/kWh. https://www.f150lightningforum.com/...-pay-per-kwh-at-home.12567/page-5#post-268090 I haven’t been able to get an answer from my utility on why electricity is so expensive here and if anything can be done to reduce the bill. The governor signed a bill in August 2022 requiring utilities to develop a time of use plan, there is no date for implementation. I looked at putting solar on my home, but it’s about $50K up front for what I’d need to power the truck and a power wall, supposedly I’ll get back all but $12K in 5 years time. Spending more than the cost of the truck on solar now is not appealing since I’m looking for another house.

The net of the high costs means I’m saving about 20% vs my 2021 Chevrolet Silverado 1500 diesel work truck getting 27 mpg. 20% isn’t nothing, but at 14.9 cents/kWh I was saving 60% compared to the diesel. At the end of the day the 20% saving isn’t enough to go from a 650 mile range with 5 minute fill ups to a ~200 mile range with necessary 30-40 minute stops for DCFC on days I drive farther. If I drove less in a day I would’ve opted to keep the Lightning, but I’m pushing the 160 mile mark 2-3 days per week. The expected winter range drop would make my situation worse, and likely making the EV more expensive than diesel. To top that off the utilities here have asked for a 64% increase in electric rates that should be decided on next month. My truck is heading to the Midwest to a guy paying 9 cents per kWh and less overnight, he will save a bunch of money compared to gasoline.

I‘m a fleet manager for a construction company with 150 trucks, I bought the Lightning personally to test the concept for the company. With government mandates for no new ICE vehicles by 2035 (MA follows CA rules) I wanted the data and knowledge on what EV’s are currently capable of. As this point in MA with the electricity prices 2-4x what most people are paying in other states I can’t recommend electric vehicles for our fleet. Aside from the costs, many of our drivers run 200+ miles in a day and tow 14’ enclosed trailers. I have a 2023 Bolt EUV on order for one of our drivers, now I’m debating on canceling. I’ll have to check out the Bolt forum and get some data before I decide.

I am very glad I purchased and experienced the Lightning, it’s an amazing vehicle and driving experience that I will miss. I am looking forward to what time and market competition will bring for EV’s and more specifically battery technology in the next 5-10 years. I’m a huge advocate for EV’s just not in my state right now due to the electric rates. I have notified my Chevy fleet guy that I want a Silverado EV as soon as they are available, and I have personal reservations for the Silverado EV and Tesla. I will reevaluate the energy price issue when the next truck is available.

My survey:

Very thoughtful report. Thanks. Sorry it does nto fit your needs.

 

[FirstF150InCasco]

I think your math is wrong. Plus, if you are really running a business you should consult with your CPA.

mileage is deductible, but also your electricity becomes an expense so you can double dip.

Your topic is based on your opinion, but other companies know how to make this work.

this is not about being environmentally friendly etc, with the right incentives and strategies you could be saving a Shit load of money.

how much does Def run you? How much is the maintenance on those diesel trucks?

what is the maintenance on the Lightning?

If you are truly here with good intentions, I’d suggest you go to a tax professional because there is a lot of money you are leaving on the table.

Like your "double dip" advice!!

 

[antimatterparticle]

Like your "double dip" advice!!

Yeah I did not realize he had more than 5

 

[Solar_EE]

What you have forgotten, in your equation, though, is MAINTENANCE, and WARRANTY, and CONVENIENCE.

While you might have to stop more often and longer to fill an EV, while traveling, you also have to remember the out-of-service time and costs in oil changes, powertrain maintenance, and all the future 'legacy' diesel and/or gas engine maintenance costs.
Both vehicles will need tires, that's a simple comparison, but the EV also will not need NEAR the frequent brake pad changes, due to the amount of regeneration.

Other than those two similarities, the EV Lightning needs NO other maintenance. All that is not even considering that the EV Lightning comes with a 8 YEAR 100,000 miles WARRANTY - no other Ford truck or diesel from any manufacturer will come anywhere close to that.

For convenience, you have 'at home' or 'at work' charging, for the most part. NO stops at fuel stations on a regular basis, EVER. Yes, travel will sometimes require a DC Fast Charger, but those are becoming more available, and in more places, and at greater speeds, over time. We have to give it time to mature.

I'll also bet that your utility will soon devise an 'EV charging' time-of-use plan as there is a lot of pressure on governments and utilities to 'embrace' the EV change that is coming. I have seen more DC Fast chargers pop up in Georgia at Utility Companies than anywhere else. If we have utilities and Ford dealers doing more of this, the travel equation will get even better.

but, in the end, the owner has to feel comfortable in whatever decision is made. Sometimes it's NOT about costs, or time, or warranty, it's just about what we already 'know'. The legacy 'gas' engine vehicle environment has been around for 100 years, and it's not going away anytime soon. The cost of fuel, though, is another story.

I'll also add, as a comparison between a diesel and an EV: you never need to 'IDLE'... your truck is simply 'ON' all the time, if that's what you wish. A/c and Heat and other needs, including ProPower, is at your service 24/7... no idling needed.

and, I just thought of something else: A set of Chargepoint DC Fast Chargers in Dothan Alabama, from Dothan Utilities, only charges 7 1/2 cents p/kwh - and that's for DC Fast Charging. An amazing 'low-cost' option if you travel thru the area, or even if you are an owner LIVING near there!

That is an amazing price for DC fast charging! But that utility is still making money. Rates are going up here in PJM (Pennsylvania Jersey Maryland) area but last year the wholesale price for electricity was 4.2 cents per kWh. That's what my local utility paid me for the excess generated from my solar panels. The monthly customer charges and transmission charges are a huge cost adder. So glad I invested in solar panels 8 years ago- the system has nearly paid for itself already.

 

[TaxmanHog]

I think your math is wrong. Plus, if you are really running a business you should consult with your CPA.

mileage is deductible, but also your electricity becomes an expense so you can double dip.

You either deduct detailed expensing or you take the flat miles rate not both,

I could see a business owner who has a commercial store front or building where the electric bill would be distinctly dedicated to and expensed on a 1120, 1065 or even a 1040-Schedule C, seems unethical IMHO even if it ~fly's under the radar~, a cleaner way would be to expense the lease payments or depreciation, maintenance and other operating costs ~strictly related to the business activity~ as always personal use is off the table.

 

[Surfnturf]

The truck is a powerwall!!!

This is only partially true. The Powerwall does a lot more than just provide emergency back up power (which is all the Lightning can currently do). I installed a 12kW PV system and two Powerwalls and they increase my utility savings because of their ability to greatly increase my solar self consumption. My utility currently pays 10 cents kWh for exported power but charges me 45 cents for everything I import. So the Powerwall saves me on the 35 cent delta. This wasn't the case a couple years ago when the rates were 23 cents (delta of only 13 cents) but higher electric rates are the sign of the times. Gas prices can fluctuate up and down dramatically but upkeep and maintenance of a utility grid is only going to get more expensive over time.

I have read that Ford will eventually provide V2G and V2H active (i.e. not just provide functionality when the utility goes dark like it's set up now). It will be a disappointment if this doesn't come to fruition within the first year or so. Manufacturers and utilities have a major opportunity to completely overcome the single biggest (and valid) anti-EV argument by allowing and incentivizing EV owners to charge when the grid has plentiful power and reverse that power when the grid needs it. I don't understand why the utility needs to spend billions on standalone energy storage infrastructure when EVs have far more than enough storage and more than enough willing customers to participate in demand response management programs.

Ironically the only fully sanctioned and capable V2G demand response EV is the Nissan Leaf which has the smallest capacity battery of virtually all EVs.

If people think they are saving money with current and future TOU programs, V2G demand response will increase those savings many fold and has the potential to generate income for participants. Some may argue that participating in these programs can increase battery degradation and decrease battery life span. Studies however have proven that the opposite is often the case and increased cycling (i.e. higher daily cycling depth of discharge between 40-70% can increase battery lifespan vs decrease it). Since a relatively small percentage of people use over 40% of their EVs battery capacity on a daily basis this leaves ample energy storage for the grid to take at their leisure.

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