Brightsaver solar panels charging via PPOB?

[CD4TNF]

Saw this interesting product on the news.

DIY solar panel kit plugging into the 120v home outlet. That way home owners don't need an expensive electrical upgrade to offset a small portion of their electrical usage. The kit comes in 180W and 360W output.

https://www.canarymedia.com/articles/solar/balcony-panel-bright-saver-deal

https://www.brightsaver.org/balcony-solar-kits

My question for the group is: would this product be compatible with charging electricity into our PPOB sockets?


The benefit is removing a Jackery/Anker intermediary battery that some folks use in their solar setups. I can definitely understand the kit would need to scale to 3-6 kits to charge 1-2 kW.

Thoughts?

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[RickLightning]

No, you cannot input into the 120v outlet.

 

[fhteagle]

The first rule of Lightning Club is you do NOT talk about backfeeding PPOB.

The second rule of Lightning Club is you do NOT talk about backfeeding PPOB.

The third rule of Lightning Club is you do NOT talk about backfeeding PPOB.

So no, do NOT do this.

 

[K6CCC]

I will start this with what has already been said - DO NOT TRY THIS with the PPOB outlet!

The electrical grid is designed around distributed generation (originally multiple generating units, and now thousands of solar, wind, etc local generation sources). As long as the inverter for your solar system is designed for grid tied operation, it will work fine with the electrical grid.

If you were to plug your solar system grid tied inverter into the PPOB outlet, it MIGHT work under the right set of circumstances - not to charge. It also likely will not. The PPOB inverter is not designed to be tied to another source of AC power. Doing so could well damage the PPOB inverter, and under no circumstances will you be able to charge the truck battery via the PPOB outlet - the PPOB inverter is a one way device.

The only circumstance where it might work (DON'T TRY IT), is if there are other loads plugged into the PPOB outlets that are ALWAYS drawing more power than the solar grid tied inverter. What I mean by that is if there is for example a 2,000 watt load that is ALWAYS on, and the solar is outputting for example 500 watts, the solar inverter SHOULD sync with the PPOB inverter and output it's 500 watts, leaving the PPOB inverter to power the remaining 1,500 watts of the 2,000 watt load. In this case, the solar grid tied inverter would be treating the PPOB inverter as the utility grid. The PPOB inverter MAY still object to doing that. If the aforementioned 2,000 watt load were to get turned off, there would be no place for the 500 watts from the solar inverter to go (grid tied inverters are designed to always generate as much AC power as they can from the available DC power from the solar). That would result in a substantial voltage and frequency spike that would almost certainly damage the PPOB inverter.

So, in summary, DON'T TRY THIS unless you want to risk damage to your PPOB inverter.

 

[CD4TNF]

Got it. Thank you for the very clear warning.

 

[TaxmanHog]

Got it. Thank you for the very clear warning.

What everyone else said about the PPOB, DO NOT DO IT, you can't charge the trucks HVB this way.

Seen this video about direct back feeding technology, US code does not allow this yet.

 

[CD4TNF]

Moving away from the PPOB and Lighting. To the home powering solution aspect.

The article and YouTube video make the same point. Home powering solutions for renters and apartments has a market gap for those products to fill.

The Pila battery and Brightsaver solar panel feeding into the 120v home socket are a new innovative product.

Ferrel and the article make the same point. Electrical code are rules being re-written to accommodate these products.

But a technical amendment that experts have proposed adding to the National Electrical Code, rules that all states use to safeguard people from electricity hazards, points out that the electrical wires in U.S. homes have some buffer built in. This margin isn’t enough for a larger 1,200-watt balcony solar setup, but it is sufficient to accommodate Bright Saver’s system.
Plugging 360 watts into a typical 15-amp circuit “can never damage” the 14-gauge copper wires commonly used, per the amendment’s explanatory notes. While the proposal hasn’t been adopted yet, Stryker expects it will be by September 2028, before the next scheduled update to the code is released.
“We designed our systems to be 360 watts because of what the NEC amendment tells us is safe,” Stryker said.

 

[chl]

Moving away from the PPOB and Lighting. To the home powering solution aspect.

The article and YouTube video make the same point. Home powering solutions for renters and apartments has a market gap for those products to fill.

The Pila battery and Brightsaver solar panel feeding into the 120v home socket are a new innovative product.

Ferrel and the article make the same point. Electrical code are rules being re-written to accommodate these products.

Yes as others said, the PPOB is a one-way street...there is such a thing as a two-way bi-directional inverter but we ain't got 'em in the Lightning, in case that interests you:

https://www.prostarsolar.net/article/how-does-a-bidirectional-inverter-work.html

Also about the plug-in or 'balcony solar" be careful with that.

Really the best was to do it is with a dedicated line from the solar with DC-AC converter to your service panel and you need a bi-directional utility meter or your meter will charge you for the extra energy the solar produces.

See this video for example:


Why it can be 'dangerous' and risk overloading a circuit if done wrong (note I pulled this off the internet but seems right to me):
-----

Combined Current: Your circuit breaker is designed to protect wires from taking on too much current (e.g., 15 or 20 amps) from the grid. If you plug solar into an outlet and also run high-draw appliances (like a space heater or microwave) on that same circuit, you risk overloading the electrical wire.

Bypassing the Breaker: The circuit breaker only "sees" the power coming from your main electrical panel. If solar is pushing, say, 1,000 watts into a shared circuit and you are pulling 1,000 watts from another outlet on that same wire, the wire between those two outlets can carry double the current without the breaker ever tripping to stop it.

Melted Wires and Receptacles: Continuous loading beyond the rating of your standard wall outlet or 14-gauge wiring can cause heat buildup, melting insulation, and socket contacts to loosen over time

GFCI Malfunctions: According to a whitepaper by UL Solutions, backfeeding electricity into standard branch circuits can damage or "blind" Ground-Fault Circuit Interrupter (GFCI) breakers and outlets. This leaves wet locations (like kitchens, baths, and patios) without crucial shock protection

---
How to Use Plug-In Solar Safely

To eliminate the risk of circuit overloads and fire hazards, electrical experts and safety organizations like the NEC (National Electrical Code) recommend the following

Use a Dedicated Circuit: The safest way to interconnect a plug-in solar system is to have an electrician run a dedicated circuit and breaker for it.

Limit Total Output: If you must use a shared circuit, ensure the maximum output of your solar inverter is small (usually under 800 to 1,000 watts) and that you avoid plugging heavy appliances into that same circuit

Use Smart Breakers: Devices like the Craftstrom NEC Smart Breaker or specialized energy monitors can safely manage the power flow on shared circuits to prevent disasters and keep your setup code-compliant

 

[chl]

Here's what my utility says about the safety of plug-in solar and the risk of overloading without a using a PCS:
---
Does plug-in solar remain safe when space heaters, hair dryers, and other power hungry appliances are simultaneously plugged into other outlets?

Plug-in solar systems that meet ULSE’s product safety standard will be safe. As typical for product safety standards, the plug-in solar standard has multiple pathways to meet the safety requirements.

One of the more common pathways, established in the UL3700 standard, is the use of special equipment that operates as a power control system (PCS). Power control systems use current sensors that measure the flow of electricity and can send a signal to the solar system’s inverter to reduce the solar generation.

In the unlikely event that power hungry appliances are plugged into outlets in an atypical configuration that begins to heat the home wiring to unsafe levels, the PCS will automatically shut off or throttle down the solar power production.

 

[Runaway Tractor]

This is the absolute stupidest thing I have ever seen. This is an exercise in marketing babble catering to people who have no clue what they're buying.

If it was sunny all 365 days per year, this moronic overpriced piece of junk could save you up to $60 per year. It would only take about 7 years to pay for itself. Maybe a few months less in Socialist California where power is 4x the cost of everywhere else. Until you factor in things like clouds, rain, seasons, angles, lack of a load to begin with, panel degradation, the scam company going out of business, etc. it may pay for itself before you die of old age.

 

[chl]

This is the absolute stupidest thing I have ever seen. This is an exercise in marketing babble catering to people who have no clue what they're buying.

If it was sunny all 365 days per year, this moronic overpriced piece of junk could save you up to $60 per year. It would only take about 7 years to pay for itself. Maybe a few months less in Socialist California where power is 4x the cost of everywhere else. Until you factor in things like clouds, rain, seasons, angles, lack of a load to begin with, panel degradation, the scam company going out of business, etc. it may pay for itself before you die of old age.

It really depends on your utility rate, latitude on the planet, how much solar wattage the utility/local laws allow for an unregulated (plug-in) system usually around 1.2kW, etc.
Most solar systems these days produce something even on cloudy days.
Solar panels have at least a 30 year lifetime these days.

So my emergency circuit quiescent usage (lights, computers, refrigerator, and electricity vampires) is around 1kW, excluding the coffee pot and microwave which each use that much when on, as I discovered using PPOB.

My peak rate (most of which occurs when the sun is shining brightly during the utility "summer rate" = Apr to Oct) is about 8 cents per kWh but that doesn't include all the per kWh charges that get added on like fuel and transmission charge, etc. so the actual bottom line rate is 17 cents per kWh peak usage.

Off-setting 1.2kW for say 6hrs a day = 7.2kWh per day, x17cents/kWh = $1.224 per day saved.
183 days (between Apr 15 and Oct 15) x $1.224 per day = $223.99 during the "summer" season.

Of course that is a perhaps a best case scenario.

And the sun shines from Fall to Spring too they tell me.

Now some plug-in solar systems might include storage batteries, which could extend the time the solar energy is available to off-set utility costs, but of course drives up the price.

But without batteries, a home-built plug-in solar could have a 4 year payback time I reckon.

Some advantages of plug-in solar systems is the lack of red tape involved in using it, not needing a roof top install (apt dwellers in Germany use these systems extensively on balconies), simple installation, no utility involvement in grid-tied systems, and a relatively low cost.

Anyway, it may be economically advantageous for some folks depending on their situation.

In my case, I have a house on the island of Montserrat my parents built in the late 1970's, Lat and Long: 16.7471N, 62.22605W.
Electricity rates there are much higher than here in N. Va.around 50 cents per kWh in US money.
Also there is no possibility of grid tie / net metering there at all at present.
My main use of energy there is the refrigerator and ceiling fans.
The solar insolation there is much higher as well, and I have unobstructed southern exposure on my roof and pool deck.
----
Average Daily Solar Insolation (GHI): Ranges from 5.0 to 5.8 kWh/m²/day (which equates to 5.0 to 5.8 peak sun hours per day).

Annual Solar Insolation (GHI): Approximately 1,800 to 2,100 kWh/m² per year
----

A 1.2kW system would cover almost all my average daily usage when I visit there.
That brings up another feature of plug-in solar - I might be able carry one to Montserrat in a suitcase or two.

The only issue I might run into with plug-in solar there is back flow if I produce more than I use. I might need an anti-back flow meter which could cause the utility to freak out, lol.

Also without battery storage no power during an outage unless I fire up my noisy gas generator.

 

[chl]

I've been back feeding my places over 30 years using a generator and a 240v dryer outlet. **Open the main breaker to the line**. Limited of course by the power source. Problem with this gadget is relying on solar panels, namely not enough to do any good, you'll also need a substantial battery array for those not so sunny times and none of it's cheap.

I've got about 25 grand so far in my solar system and it's not enough. 42.5kWh storage and 9600kW pv modules consisting of 3 arrays, one fixed on the roof and two in series on trackers. In order to run my entire home at my current level of comfort, I'll need another 5kW pv modules.

Even with that I'm only good for 7 days including the truck battery. 1900sqft and a 3.5T central system, total electric.

Only thing that balcony system will accomplish is charging a cell phone.

Living large....

 

[chl]

BTW, electricity costs in CA are not due to "socialism." The elect companies are privately owned capitalistic entities.

What is at play in CA is a combination of typical capitalistic enterprise operating expenses and the basic law of economics: supply and demand. When demand is high, and supply limited, price will be high.

Investor-owned utilities (like PG&E, SCE, and SDG&E) have spent billions in recent years on safety measures, equipment hardening, and legal liabilities from devastating wildfires, the costs are passed on directly to consumers.

Most of the utility’s fixed operational costs (like grid maintenance and wildfire programs) are embedded directly into the price per kilowatt-hour, rather than being collected as a flat monthly fee. This means the more electricity you use, the more you subsidize these massive fixed costs.

The state's aging electrical infrastructure requires massive investments to support higher electricity demands, integrate renewable energy sources, and support the shift toward electric vehicles and home heating.

That's how capitalism works, love it or leave it...or change it?

 

[Runaway Tractor]

Rambling AI generated blabber

We're talking about a portable piece of junk with social marketing team. Next.

 

[hturnerfamily]

while it's true that you may have a product like this that can feed 120v power into your home's wiring, the truck is not designed like your home's wiring, and requires a CONVERTER to change the incoming 120v power into DC power. That Converter sits between the Charge Port inlet, and the battery pack, therefore making input from any of the onboard outlets impractical.

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