Crazy Surging

[Firn]

I think I have gone over the fact that I am not touching the brake, so how can the brake be activated? Are you saying it could not be applied automatically by the truck?

How well do people know how the anti-sway feature works? This is going to involves sensors and heavy programming, all of which can fail. FYI I know 5 computer languages and have a working knowledge of three more. This is complex stuff here guys.

If that is all you mean by calibration, yes I have calibrated it. If you are not familiar with a Tekonsha(?) controller, it is FAR more complicated to calibrate.

You are experienced with software, which is why you are so focused on it being a software issue, you might need to move past your experience to resolve this.

The f150 is a VERY popular truck but I could find minimal threads discussing this as a software issue. If it was software it would be directly tied to the F150. However there are a plethora of discussions regarding such issues and trailer setup.

Because you know software does not make this a software issue.

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[Bespectacled Ape]

I think you are way overthinking this situation.

I am not aware of any active measures the truck takes with the throttle while towing. I don't believe there is any software assistance here.

If the truck is hitting the brakes it isn't from it thinking there is something in front of it. That would fire off all kids of precollision warnings, etc. If there is brake application it is in the trailer brake controller side of things.

You mentioned previously that you can feel the front tires gripping or losing traction, something like that. That should NOT be happening, not unless you are hammering the throttle. This very much suggests a weight imbalance issue.

OK, thx for your input, and I appreciate the care with which you say "I am not aware of" and "I don't believe" and "suggests." I am not so sure there would be a warning for automatic brake controller input, eg like the Tekonsha (calibration issue that doesn't seem to exist on the Ford).

Not sure what you mean about the front tires. As mentioned they are stock and not really truck tires. They usually equip these because they are cheaper and give a softer ride for the test drive. They could be deforming frighteningly and I just can't see it.

And it has already been hammered into this thread that people are focusing on something I have done wrong, but as mentioned I am exploring the idea that I actually have a lot of experience towing and I have never felt this "Crazy Surging." Still not sure anyone has. As mentioned there is absolutely the likelihood that this is a software issue. I have adjusted weights and all settings to the limits (and doubt this is just a ball height issue), so IF it isn't software (which is very clearly the point of this thread, and people here seem just not to know) then it is a WDH design issue that fails with this particular truck and trailer geometry.

The period (time of back and forth surge) and intensity leads me to believe it is in fact WDH chain swing, brought on by software. FYI the surging is not the same period as any porpoising. I can deal with that. Bush league. This is different. Like two overlapping sine waves of different frequency, perhaps even in harmonic resonance with chain length. Do you follow me?

I appreciate all the careful input and will scratch my head to think about what physical adjustments could be made, but I think this is all I am going to get out of this thread.

 

[Bespectacled Ape]

Most towing reports are something to the effect of, "this is the best tow vehicle I've ever driven." You aren't giving Ford enough credit. Trucks are kind of their thing.

And don't get me wrong, this is a totally a "beast" of a truck and I am very happy with it, but no I am not going to trust the programming. Case in point, I am glad the latest update fixed one our window issue, but I am 100% positive the "feature" of automatically rolling the window all the way up will result in the death of many children. All it takes is sticking a head out the window and pulling up on the button. The force required to stop the window is more than enough to snap a little spine or fracture a hyoid. All for convenience?

 

[Grumpy2]

Who puts children in the front seat?

 

[Bespectacled Ape]

Who puts children in the front seat?

Who blames parents for a simple software fix?

 

[Henry Ford]

And don't get me wrong, this is a totally a "beast" of a truck and I am very happy with it, but no I am not going to trust the programming. Case in point, I am glad the latest update fixed one our window issue, but I am 100% positive the "feature" of automatically rolling the window all the way up will result in the death of many children. All it takes is sticking a head out the window and pulling up on the button. The force required to stop the window is more than enough to snap a little spine or fracture a hyoid. All for convenience?

Automatic windows have been around for a long time. Do you really think there isn't a fail-safe engineered into them?

 

[Bespectacled Ape]

FYI the surging is not the same period as any porpoising. I can deal with that. Bush league. This is different. Like two overlapping sine waves of different frequency, perhaps even in harmonic resonance with chain length. Do you follow me?

PS All the way through this, I am not sure what is throwing the truck back and forth (surging). Difficult to see how the chains could allow the surging when the bars are tied to the hitch. What is providing the slop need to allow the surge? Adjustments and weight balance will help porpoising and steering control, but again folks, that is not the problem. It is surging, hence, probably software.

 

[Firn]

And don't get me wrong, this is a totally a "beast" of a truck and I am very happy with it, but no I am not going to trust the programming. Case in point, I am glad the latest update fixed one our window issue, but I am 100% positive the "feature" of automatically rolling the window all the way up will result in the death of many children. All it takes is sticking a head out the window and pulling up on the button. The force required to stop the window is more than enough to snap a little spine or fracture a hyoid. All for convenience?

Duuude...

For one, the update didn't add that feature if that is what you are thinking.

Two, automatic windows have been around for better than 20 years now, heck my 09 Pontiac had it. In EVERY case an anti-pinch feature has been incorporated for those 20 years. In fact that is why our front windows have one touch up, but the rears do not, the rears don't have the anti-pinch sensors and thus cannot be auto up.

For being "100% positive" you don't know these trucks, and their software, as well as you think you do...

We can't help until you stop thinking you are the smartest guy in the room

 

[Grumpy2]

One last attempt ...

You are towing a 10,000lbs load with a 7,000lbs truck. To control this setup you need to lock them tightly together, other wise the 10k load will control.

The only weight distribution hitch I have experience with is the following.

I had to carry a 4' long pipe to engage the 1200 lbs (capacity) bars. Once you have properly setup the hitch, and the sway bars you will have a solid system and the truck will feel like your driving a locomotive.

 

[TaxmanHog]

It is surging, hence, probably software.

Over the years, I've read of other members overloading or putting it close to capacity, none reported a surging situation that I recall.

Did your Lightning come equipped onboard scale? (some builds had it deleted due to lack of supplies).

I'm curious if there is an erratic output from the weight sensor, that's feeding the algorithm bad data and leading to a surging sensation.

Is the readout stable, you might see slight variations, sometimes the scale reset fixes that.

If you have it, go to the scale menu, reset it to baseline [EMPTY], you can calibrate the expected passenger, cabin and bed cargo loads to offset the available capacity for tongue weight.

Attach the trailer, review the tongue loads impact on the scale, with & without the weight distribution hitch supporting the load, is the scale indicating overload conditions?

Adjust your WDH & ride height to it's optimum settings to get the tongue weight into spec.

 

[Henry Ford]

New guy: "I've come to the most extensive knowledge base of Lightnings outside of Dearborn because I have a problem and would appreciate help."

Everyone: "The fix is probably this."

New guy: "I don't like that answer and you are all rubes."

Everyone:

 

[SpaceEVDriver]

You claim to be a scientist but you're dismissing the several peers-review you asked for. You've settled on a hypothesis and are ignoring the peers who are telling you that hypothesis is unlikely to be correct. You are hauling 8,200 kg of mass at 88 kph (2.5 million Joules of kinetic energy) down a roadway with other, innocent, people alongside you. You need to let go of the ego.

Before blaming Ford, you should allow for the probability that you're loading and hitching incorrectly.

More importantly, if the Lightning is unsafe to be using as a tow vehicle because of something you cannot fix (Ford's software), then you should park the trailer until you can get ahold of and use a properly-functioning tow vehicle. Otherwise you're putting others in danger and that's just not cool.

In the meantime, why not methodically and properly do all of the things you can to fix or eliminate other possible problems that are within your control?

1. Start over. First, read the owner's manual towing section, as well as all the precautions (cruise control, lane keep assist, 1PD drive, etc., etc., etc.) throughout the manual. Also read the towing-specific manual. The link can be found in the owner's manual.
2. Check that the trailer suspension is in good condition, that the trailer tires are in good condition, and that the trailer frame is in good condition. Surging as you described, whatever the cause, can damage the trailer, and you should double-check all of the parts of the trailer that might have been damaged. If any damage has occurred, you should not be towing the trailer until it is repaired.
3. Check that the truck's hitch is still properly attached to the vehicle. Surging like you described, regardless of the cause, can damage the truck's hitch and possibly the frame. If any damage has occurred, the truck is no longer safe to use as a tow vehicle until it is repaired.
4. Next make sure you have properly distributed the trailer weight so it's not too heavy behind the axles and not too heavy on the tongue. The tongue weight should be not more the maximum tongue weight of the truck (1000 pounds with a WDH--include the WDH weight in your tongue weight calculation) and not less than 10% of the trailer weight. With a 10,000 pound trailer that's 1000 pounds. If you're really towing 10,000 pounds, you have a very, very narrow band to get the tongue weight right, which means proper WDH installation, especially ball height is absolutely critical.
5. Double-check your truck tire pressure. It should not be 39 PSI as recommended by Ford for normal driving. Instead the tires should be properly inflated to manage the load you've put on the vehicle.
6. Double-check your trailer tire pressures.
7. Find a level—truly level—surface and level the trailer. Don't do this by eyeball, use a proper instrument. Measure the rake of the truck while it's not connected to the trailer—you will want the final rake when the WDH is engaged to be close to the rake without a load.
8. Set the hitch height according to Ford's and the hitch manufacturer's instructions. I cannot believe you allowed some random dude to assert that it should be just high enough not to touch the tailgate--that's a moronic way of setting ball height. I've been towing for 40 years and have never heard something as stupid as that. Proper ball height is dependent on the very specific truck+trailer+trailer load combination. The fact that you allowed this is why I believe you're making assumptions and assertions without evidence and that your troubles likely stem from an improperly loaded trailer and an improperly set hitch height.
9. Use the hitch manufacturer's instructions to properly set the tension on the WDH chains. It's not always simply "as tight as possible."
10. Calibrate the brake controller's gain (the instructions are, in fact, in the Ford owner's manual).
11. If doing all of this correctly doesn't fix the problem, then you might have an argument that there's something wrong with the truck. Try driving without any sort of driver assist engaged. No cruise control, no lane keep assist, 1pd off, etc. If there's no cruise control engaged, the truck will not engage the accelerator. If there's no braking assist on, the truck will not engage the brakes without a system/safety warning. If these things are happening when you have no software engaged, then maybe it really is a software issue. In which case it's time to park and find a different tow vehicle until you can get that fixed.

 

[Bespectacled Ape]

Over the years, I've read of other members overloading or putting it close to capacity, none reported a surging situation that I recall.

Did your Lightning come equipped onboard scale? (some builds had it deleted due to lack of supplies).

I'm curious if there is an erratic output from the weight sensor, that's feeding the algorithm bad data and leading to a surging sensation.

Is the readout stable, you might see slight variations, sometimes the scale reset fixes that.

If you have it, go to the scale menu, reset it to baseline [EMPTY], you can calibrate the expected passenger, cabin and bed cargo loads to offset the available capacity for tongue weight.

Attach the trailer, review the tongue loads impact on the scale, with & without the weight distribution hitch supporting the load, is the scale indicating overload conditions?

Adjust your WDH & ride height to it's optimum settings to get the tongue weight into spec.

Wow! There we go. Some knowledgable info. I will get back to you.

 

[Whammy Bar]

Couple questions...

What's the suspension on the truck? You as the factory intended? Or have you done any leveling or suspension changes?

Have you by chance driven over the same locations that caused the surging without the trailer attached? If so, how does the truck perform?

--

My Lariat before the Eibach suspension change was a floaty POS over rolling bumps and abrupt overpass transitions... It was downright laughable and scary. If it had a trailer attached, there's no doubt in my mind it'd probably translate into something similar to what you're describing now.

 

[RickLightning]

Wow! There we go. Some knowledgable info. I will get back to you.

Really? Guess you missed the go weigh the truck and trailer at the CAT scale...

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