Lightning E-Rev 690 to 700 mile range

[rembrant]

Yep. Funny thing is for the last few months I have looked at what’s on the road and I rarely see 150 gas trucks towing 10k pounds. It’s typically a 250 or 350. That’s in the northwest as well as middle of nowhere CA.
I honestly think ford Marketing shot themselves in the foot marketing the lightning as a tower’s dream. They set false expectations and set people up to be disappointed.

They should have had a chart that listed F150 power trains (including electric), and then for the box where the lightning row and the “long distance towing” column meet, there should have been a “NO”.

in other words that should have marketed the Lightning as just another F150 instead of a super F150.

I agree. Long distance towing, heavy equipment hauling and towing heavy equipment is done with a 250, 350, or 550 because of the suspension and brake system is made for towing and heavy loads. Ford should have made a generator as an option not mandatory for the all electric F150 pickup trucks. That would satisfy a larger market.

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[Jseis]

It appears that the rapid pace of engineering advancement out of China is at the tipping point of increased range through battery energy density & phenomenal charging speed. The future pretty bright in China due to their phenomenal investment in engineering schools-colleges-universities.

An EREV is so meh. In 56,000 miles I’d have likely never used it as I don’t lay down 100-300 Miles a day towing and/or don’t drive the nearly 400 miles round trip to the big cities or across the state on a regular basis. And at 6.4 pennies per kWh and gas right at $5 a gallon.. well it’s an expensive hazardous liquid I’d prefer to avoid. I agree with the PITA of a big lawnmower engine in the frunk… such a nuisance and in my driving style, it‘d never run (as long as it’s a plug in hybrid ).

Our MME is approaching 5 years old and the Lightning will turn 3 this summer. Phenomenal vehicles. I’ll soon be retired and I’d be really surprised if either vehicle reaches 100K within the next 5-7 years. Given high fuel prices and low electric rates those BEVS will/could ultimately save us net $60K-$70K (current estimates) when they both reach 100K miles. Given inflation, the future value is more $$$ savings. Their somewhat heated garage storage keeps them out of the coastal weather and who knows? Could be like an old iPhone in a drawer… still works after a decade. One can only hope that they aren’t bricked by time.

 

[Wendy]

Not even remotely interested in an EREV. It’s a niche market that will buy it. I bet it won’t sell as many as the Lightning.

Then Ford can take another big write off for selling a few EREVs for half what it cost to build them!

 

[25StarWhiteLightning]

I'll take the other side of that bet. I think they'll easily sell far more EREVs than they ever did BEVs.*

*With a couple caveats:

1) They are brought to production at full capacity soon (so there aren't shortages/dealer markups).
2) The specs are similar to/competitive with the Ram Rev.
3) The price is reasonable (same or less delta with the gas trucks as the BEV Long Range had).

It has been...interesting to see the comments from people here after this announcement. Everybody has their own needs/wants, etc, people will like what they like and there's nothing wrong with that. I can't say I'm surprised with the overall tone as most here are representative of the 4% who already chose to buy the BEV.

As a member of the 96% who has exactly zero interest in buying the BEV version, I can say for sure I'll be in the market for one of these in a couple of years. Hopefully they can bring it to market soon enough and it's a really good truck. It will be fascinating to see what happens the next couple of years with the Ram Rev and (especially if it's successful) how Ford tries to match or beat it.

Just curious what your use case is that a normal F-150, F-250 couldn't do better than an EREV?

 

[Altivec]

I'll take the other side of that bet. I think they'll easily sell far more EREVs than they ever did BEVs.*

*With a couple caveats:

1) They are brought to production at full capacity soon (so there aren't shortages/dealer markups).
2) The specs are similar to/competitive with the Ram Rev.
3) The price is reasonable (same or less delta with the gas trucks as the BEV Long Range had).

It has been...interesting to see the comments from people here after this announcement. Everybody has their own needs/wants, etc, people will like what they like and there's nothing wrong with that. I can't say I'm surprised with the overall tone as most here are representative of the 4% who already chose to buy the BEV.

As a member of the 96% who has exactly zero interest in buying the BEV version, I can say for sure I'll be in the market for one of these in a couple of years. Hopefully they can bring it to market soon enough and it's a really good truck. It will be fascinating to see what happens the next couple of years with the Ram Rev and (especially if it's successful) how Ford tries to match or beat it.

You are implying that the 4% lacks your wisdom. Many of us who purchased a lightning have only done so after experiencing transitional tech such as hybrids and EREV's. I know I have and I can say without a doubt my EREV was the most problematic vehicle I've ever owned. Worst of Both worlds and any minor savings gained were quickly eaten up with other expenses. Other than RAM's great marketing, not sure what compels you or what problem you are trying to solve by wanting an EREV. Ram's been talking up its EREV for almost as long as the first lightning was out. YET 4 years later and setback after setback, not one reviewer has been able to get their hands on one to test it out. There are going to be a lot of disappointed people when RAM eventually releases one and all the negatives start coming out.

 

[Jon A]

You are implying that the 4% lacks your wisdom.

I never implied anything of the sort. I clearly said, "Everybody has their own needs/wants, etc, people will like what they like and there's nothing wrong with that." That has nothing to do with "wisdom," but likes/dislikes, use cases, priorities, location, other vehicles owned, etc. The point was that if Ford wants a truck to be successful, they need one that satisfies those things for some of the 96%, because 4% just won't cut it.

I can say without a doubt my EREV was the most problematic vehicle I've ever owned. Worst of Both worlds and any minor savings gained were quickly eaten up with other expenses.

Meaningless. You've never owned anything remotely similar to what Ram (and presumably Ford) are building. If a guy told you he once owned a gas car and it was a complete POS, therefore your brand new F150 Coyote was going to be a horrible vehicle...and it turned out the car he bought was a Trabant, you probable wouldn't take what he said too seriously.

not sure what compels you or what problem you are trying to solve by wanting an EREV.

Well, the BEV trucks not having the capability to physically do what my old gas truck can do in some applications--that's sort of a problem. And yet the BEVs are so much better than my gas truck in many ways. The EREVs have the potential to be an upgrade in every way, with no downgraded capabilities.

Some are hopeful they will be the "best of both worlds." You are sure they'll be the "worst of both worlds." Chances are, they'll be somewhere in between. I'm hopeful it's closer to the former, you're sure they'll be closer to the latter. In a couple of years, we'll know who was right.

YET 4 years later and setback after setback, not one reviewer has been able to get their hands on one to test it out.

Yes, there have been a lot of changes in the marketplace and at the company since it was announced causing many delays. The biggest one though, I can't say I blame the company for. They're doing what they should be doing--listening to their customers. Putting it on the shelf for another year while they focus all their resources on giving the customers what they want--the Hemi--and getting that ramped up to full production was a wise choice (they actually make a lot of money on those).

Hopefully this has been a blessing in disguise. The Engineers have been driving those things around all this time and have hopefully found and worked out many of the bugs that otherwise would have hit first year customers.

 

[Jon A]

Just curious what your use case is that a normal F-150, F-250 couldn't do better than an EREV?

Well, like most light truck owners, it depends on the day, the week, the month, the year.... Lots of short trips/daily driving, lots of medium trips, some really long trips (some years more than others), and a fair number of long towing trips (some years a bunch, some years none at all).

So, like most light duty truck owners, I buy a truck for its capability. The capability to do the hardest things I might ever need it to do, not for what I do every day.

Since neither of these trucks exist yet (well, the Ram exists, but not in any customers' hands), all we can really do is speculate at this point. Look at the specs and project that if it lives up to those specs, how it should perform.

For comparison, I don't have an F150 (I've got something MUCH better! ), but do have a really nice gas 1/2 ton. Again, if the execution is successful and they actually live up to their specs (for now using the Ram specs assuming Ford will be somewhat similar) it's actually hard to think of anything my gas truck would be better at.

Short trips/daily driving, it shouldn't be any different than your BEV--much more quiet, pleasant to drive, save a ton of money on gas, etc.

Most say their Lightning gives a better ride, handles better, is much faster than the gas F150s. None of that should be different.

The board is full of towing reports where owners say the Lightning tows dramatically better than the gas variants. The effortless towing of even heavy trailers up mountain passes, the effortless way it maintains speed down those passes with regen--they're just better at towing than the gas trucks--until you need to look for a charging station....

Having all those towing advantages but being able to pull into any gas station and fill up in a few minutes (all the way to 100%!) without having to disconnect/reconnect the trailer is going to make long tows a wonderful experience.

And in the case of the RAM, the towing capabilities are far beyond what's available on any gas 1/2 ton. 14,000 lbs towing, 2600+ lbs payload...GAWR of 5700 lbs...8 lug wheels, brakes taken right off the HD trucks.... That truck is really going to be in a completely different class when it comes to towing heavy trailers than any gas 1/2 ton.

Again, I don't know for sure if Ford will try to match those capabilities, but one would think they'd try (especially if the Ram is a success). It'll be interesting to see what they come out with.

As compared with an F250, obviously for long distance towing the F250 (diesel) is going to be better with heavy trailers. But it's going to be much worse at everything else.

 

[Quibbs]

As a member of the 96% who has exactly zero interest in buying the BEV version, I can say for sure I'll be in the market for one of these in a couple of years. Hopefully they can bring it to market soon enough and it's a really good truck. It will be fascinating to see what happens the next couple of years with the Ram Rev and (especially if it's successful) how Ford tries to match or beat it.

Curious, if you never had any interest in buying a BEV, why are you posting on the F150 BEV dedicated forum? Obviously nothing prevents you from doing so, but odd that your first posts would be on this subject, on this particular forum.

Your 96% number also assumes that all those people who did not get the Lightning feel the same way about BEVS as you do. That's one hell of an assumption. There are likely multiple reasons people did not get one.

 

[Jon A]

Curious, if you never had any interest in buying a BEV, why are you posting on the F150 BEV dedicated forum?

Well, it's not the F150 BEV forum--at least, not anymore. It's the Lightning forum. I'm very interested in the next gen Lightning. With company reps posting here, this should be the best place to get the latest info on it and owner experiences once they hit the streets.

As for jumping into this particular thread, it was started by a current BEV Lightning owner who is very excited about the upcoming new model--as am I. Then everybody jumped on him to tell him what a worthless POS it was going to be. I thought the view that it might actually be a really nice truck that lots of people will like would be a welcome addition to the thread (at least the guy who started it anyway).

Of course there are lots of different reasons the 96% didn't buy a Lightning, but in the end, they didn't buy one and that's all that matters. Transitioning it to a truck that tries to solve some of those reasons for some of those people and is less expensive to build is a pretty obvious move for the company to make. In a few years, we'll know if it was successful or not. I wish them luck.

 

[Shmoe]

Well, it's not the F150 BEV forum--at least, not anymore. It's the Lightning forum. I'm very interested in the next gen Lightning. With company reps posting here, this should be the best place to get the latest info on it and owner experiences once they hit the streets.

As for jumping into this particular thread, it was started by a current BEV Lightning owner who is very excited about the upcoming new model--as am I. Then everybody jumped on him to tell him what a worthless POS it was going to be. I thought the view that it might actually be a really nice truck that lots of people will like would be a welcome addition to the thread (at least the guy who started it anyway).

Of course there are lots of different reasons the 96% didn't buy a Lightning, but in the end, they didn't buy one and that's all that matters. Transitioning it to a truck that tries to solve some of those reasons for some of those people and is less expensive to build is a pretty obvious move for the company to make. In a few years, we'll know if it was successful or not. I wish them luck.

Congrats on being one of the five people excited about Ford's step backwards.

The number 1 reason the Lightning didn't sell well is becuse of the dealer model. Had nothing to do with the product itself.

 

[25StarWhiteLightning]

So, like most light duty truck owners, I buy a truck for its capability. The capability to do the hardest things I might ever need it to do, not for what I do every day.

I can relate because I am a value buyer, but with transportation it didn't take long to realize that it is smarter, cheaper, and logical to focus on the 95% use case and then figure out other strategies for the 5%. Rental car for long trips, rent local instead of tow (RV, quads, boats, etc.). The main focus of the light duty I think for most is the bed (bikes, refrigerators, couches, 85" TVs, etc.).

 

[TurboChris]

We were all like you at one point Jon. We thought that it would be perfect to have an extended range vehicle that would get 150 miles for daily use then have gasoline for our infrequent road trips. The difference is all of us bought our BEV’s and by owning them we realized that we don’t need nor do we want the gasoline portion of what we thought we needed to have.
Instead of more range via gasoline generators or larger battery packs, I’ve realized that most important is charging speeds. I don’t want a bigger battery, I don’t want more range, I want to charge in 15 minutes or less, I want more convenient drive thru chargers, I want roadside rest stops right off of the highway to have charging at them for my road trips. I don’t care if towing on the highway I have to stop every 140 miles, I just want the stop to be right off the highway and give me another 140 miles towing or 250 miles not towing in less than 15 minutes.
This is the key to BEV’s faster charging. This concept doesn’t make sense to you because it appears that you have never owned an EV to understand the experience and what is truly needed.
I’m not saying you are wrong for wanting what you want or thinking that it’s needed. But owning one of these trucks will make 96% of the people realize they don’t want the gas range extender and only the 4% will be thinking like you wanting it.
Like I said in a post I made earlier in this thread, Ford messed up by not adding the EREV to this lineup as an option and keeping the BEV by its side. Offering both side by side would have surely doubled the sales volume between the two. I think you will find when the EREV does come out it will be more expensive just like the BEV was vs the regular gas trucks and you will find when using the gasoline generator it’s going to get similar costs per mile to the gasoline trucks while costing more upfront to purchase.
I don’t think the EREV is going to sell all that much better than the BEV Lightning did.

 

[Altivec]

I never implied anything of the sort. I clearly said, "Everybody has their own needs/wants, etc, people will like what they like and there's nothing wrong with that." That has nothing to do with "wisdom," but likes/dislikes, use cases, priorities, location, other vehicles owned, etc. The point was that if Ford wants a truck to be successful, they need one that satisfies those things for some of the 96%, because 4% just won't cut it.

You are making a ton of assumptions. There are plenty of reasons why sales of the BEV Lightning were only 4%. Ford had over a quarter million preorders which shows the interest was there. Ford just botched it up in so many ways. There are plenty of threads on why so I am not going to repeat them here. If you are interested, I am sure a quick search you'll find many. You are also implying that more of the other 96% would be interested in an EREV with nothing to back that up. I believe the numbers will be far less than 4%. By the time Ford goes into production, or I should say if they go into production, solid state batteries will be out. That alone resolves many of the issues with BEV at a fraction of the price they can make a Frankenstein.

Meaningless. You've never owned anything remotely similar to what Ram (and presumably Ford) are building. If a guy told you he once owned a gas car and it was a complete POS, therefore your brand new F150 Coyote was going to be a horrible vehicle...and it turned out the car he bought was a Trabant, you probable wouldn't take what he said too seriously.

My ELR is very similar to what Ford and RAM will be releasing. I am not dissing the car itself, which there is a lot to diss about with my GM experience but I won't go there. What I am talking about is the experience of living with the EREV technology and its inherent drawbacks. If you bought a gas vehicle and stated some of the drawbacks of the technology (ie. you need to fill them up with gas all the time and need to do oil changes) that is a valid assessment. It would be true for both the F150 Coyote and the Trabant. Notice how GM, who has the most experience with EREV's, is staying out of the EREV truck game. hmmm, wonder why.

Of course there are lots of different reasons the 96% didn't buy a Lightning, but in the end, they didn't buy one and that's all that matters. Transitioning it to a truck that tries to solve some of those reasons for some of those people and is less expensive to build is a pretty obvious move for the company to make. In a few years, we'll know if it was successful or not. I wish them luck.

Less expensive to build... ha ha ha.. good one. I don't even know why you would assume it would be cheaper. You are saying that adding an engine powerful enough to produce power to tow a 14k lb trailer up a mountain path along with added cooling, exhaust, gas tank, inverters, etc... to a completed BEV is going to be cheaper than the BEV alone. The math aint mathing for me. The only savings would be a smaller battery. Even cutting 50kwh off the battery (ie half) is not going to make up for everything that needs to be added and that's today, let alone in a couple of years from know when batteries will be much more dense and cheaper. But I wish you luck. I hope you enjoy your cheap "ha ha" Lightning 2.0 EREV

 

[pullinggs]

Instead of more range via gasoline generators or larger battery packs, I’ve realized that most important is charging speeds.

THIS!!!!!!

 

[Athrun88]

Guy is a troll; comes here, makes an account, and immediately gets in a fight with most of the community.

Agree that Ford should have added the generator as an option to the BEV at the cost of the frunk or something like that. Ford has some smart people and I'm sure they could have worked a solution. I generally blame the bean counters for anything that gets canned where the product just makes sense but didn't meet profit expectations.

I think the general concensus here is that an EREV is just a glorified hybrid that bonds the worst of both worlds. Sure you get a flash of benefit here and there, but how often does the average F-150 owner tow more than 7500lbs? I can tell you that driving around my semi-rural town that all the people driving F-150, RAM 1500, and Sierra/Silverados are not towing much (if at all) let alone filling the bed with max payload. I get purchasing a vehicle for the theoretical max capacity (as I did myself) but going backwards to a hybrid just to get the range/towing for the 1 time of the month you do tow doesn't make sense. Better to use the other two brain cells, sit down, and plan the route to take into account the added charging required. More demand on the charging front will show companies that investing in the infastructure is better in the long run than engineering individual cars/trucks that can go 1000 miles on a charge.

In my opinion, it's a better investment to build up infastructure to support quicker charging with more ports than it is to develop a super high density battery pack that most buyers don't care about or don't want to pay for!

TL;DR - EREV is a downgrade and yet another transitional technology to satisfy the old and stubborn or young and dumb, BEV is the future like it or not.

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