Charging While Driving Works w/ Gas Generator in Bed (Range Extending for F-150 Lightning) - Testing

[SpaceEVDriver]

If I see more evidence that this is real and the hardware and software has the required safety features to protect the system, leave no trace, and not void the battery warranty, I would consider it for use with a temporary auxiliary battery in the bed for our longer overlanding trips. But at this point this is an extraordinary claim without enough convincing extraordinary evidence for me to open a checkbook.

I really hope this is real and not another Phantom gaming console kind of product. My feeling is that it’s real, and the lack of some data/evidence is simply due to the OP’s excitement, desire to share, and apparent lack of business experience. I’m not trying to be rude, just extremely cautious.

I run a small auxiliary battery (5 kWh) in the bed of the truck for when we’re parked on our camping trips. That auxiliary battery plus solar gives us 30-50 miles of extra range during a 3-day camping trip. If—when needed—I could add a larger battery and charge while driving, it would help us out here in the charging and literal deserts of the US Southwest. Even without this, a ~20 kWh auxiliary battery in the bed, along with 1+ kW of solar, would give me enough range to spend a couple weeks overlanding without having to go to a charging station. But the extra ability to charge while driving would open up a few even more remote spaces.

You couldn’t pay me to go back to using dead dino juice. I am all-EV because I can’t stand gas stations, the time wasted going to gas stations, nor the smell, noise, and emissions of gas engines. To me, a fossil-fuel generator is the least-interesting way of getting extra range.

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[KurtsRPMGarage]

I love the flexibility of this. I messed around with a solar tonneau cover a while back but ultimately removed it due to the inconvenience of plugging and unplugging the system for a few miles a day. If there was an AC inlet in the bed that could potentially remove a lot of the annoyance and make the idea more feasible if the system could be more set it and forget it.

 

[ZSC100]

Plots showing the increase in range for a 10kw external feed, and a 19kw external (the ac charging limits of our trucks).

This is for 80% battery usage, not the 100% range.

I marked myself as interested but in truth would have major concerns about potential issues affecting the battery warranty.

These are great graphs, thank you for posting these. Regarding warranty: This system if used correctly to supplement energy while driving actually only positively affects battery health. It essentially offsets motor draw and raises efficiency; a virtual efficiency I've been calling it.

As I've said to others, Even 20kW is absolutely negligible energy in or out of our batteries. Continuous charging or discharging of 20kW does not even require any coolant to be hooked to the battery with moderate ambient temperatures. The onboard charger is actually what needs cooled and the truck can handle it easily while driving.

 

[Firn]

If I see more evidence that this is real and the hardware and software has the required safety features to protect the system, leave no trace, and not void the battery warranty, I would consider it for use with a temporary auxiliary battery in the bed for our longer overlanding trips. But at this point this is an extraordinary claim without enough convincing extraordinary evidence for me to open a checkbook.

I really hope this is real and not another Phantom gaming console kind of product. My feeling is that it’s real, and the lack of some data/evidence is simply due to the OP’s excitement, desire to share, and apparent lack of business experience. I’m not trying to be rude, just extremely cautious.

I run a small auxiliary battery (5 kWh) in the bed of the truck for when we’re parked on our camping trips. That auxiliary battery plus solar gives us 30-50 miles of extra range during a 3-day camping trip. If—when needed—I could add a larger battery and charge while driving, it would help us out here in the charging and literal deserts of the US Southwest. Even without this, a ~20 kWh auxiliary battery in the bed, along with 1+ kW of solar, would give me enough range to spend a couple weeks overlanding without having to go to a charging station. But the extra ability to charge while driving would open up a few even more remote spaces.

You couldn’t pay me to go back to using dead dino juice. I am all-EV because I can’t stand gas stations, the time wasted going to gas stations, nor the smell, noise, and emissions of gas engines. To me, a fossil-fuel generator is the least-interesting way of getting extra range.

There is another thread with more info.
https://www.f150lightningforum.com/...ed-range-extending-for-f-150-lightning.29842/

These are great graphs, thank you for posting these. Regarding warranty: This system if used correctly to supplement energy while driving actually only positively affects battery health. It essentially offsets motor draw and raises efficiency; a virtual efficiency I've been calling it.

As I've said to others, Even 20kW is absolutely negligible energy in or out of our batteries. Continuous charging or discharging of 20kW does not even require any coolant to be hooked to the battery with moderate ambient temperatures. The onboard charger is actually what needs cooled and the truck can handle it easily while driving.

Oh, not particularly worried about affecting battery health if everything works well. But I have seen generators start to lose frequency when under load, or have voltage variations, etc. And if something happens, or if any regular battery issue happens, suddenly its an uphill battle with Ford or the dealer in getting the battery fixed (or them denying the warranty completely).

Not that I think its likely, or that your kit would cause a problem. Just a personal worry.

 

[Yellow Buddy]

Martin is about ready to take the first real road trip with this system towing, so look for that in a few weeks.

We really need to work on a noise isolation kit first!!

 

[Gimme_my_MME]

We really need to work on a noise isolation kit first!!

WHAT?????

 

[ZSC100]

There is another thread with more info.
https://www.f150lightningforum.com/...ed-range-extending-for-f-150-lightning.29842/



Oh, not particularly worried about affecting battery health if everything works well. But I have seen generators start to lose frequency when under load, or have voltage variations, etc. And if something happens, or if any regular battery issue happens, suddenly its an uphill battle with Ford or the dealer in getting the battery fixed (or them denying the warranty completely).

We aim to make it 100% plug and Play. So, if you had any concerns like that you could unplug and uninstall it before taking your truck in. Also, I started playing with this 20kmi ago in the shop and I have put both the truck and on-board charger through development hell. I have caused every fault and DTC the truck can set related to charging many times and the truck just recovers and starts working again perfectly. I really can't brag enough on the resiliency of the power electronics in these trucks hardware.

 

[ZSC100]

If I see more evidence that this is real and the hardware and software has the required safety features to protect the system, leave no trace, and not void the battery warranty, I would consider it for use with a temporary auxiliary battery in the bed for our longer overlanding trips. But at this point this is an extraordinary claim without enough convincing extraordinary evidence for me to open a checkbook.

I really hope this is real and not another Phantom gaming console kind of product. My feeling is that it’s real, and the lack of some data/evidence is simply due to the OP’s excitement, desire to share, and apparent lack of business experience. I’m not trying to be rude, just extremely cautious.

I run a small auxiliary battery (5 kWh) in the bed of the truck for when we’re parked on our camping trips. That auxiliary battery plus solar gives us 30-50 miles of extra range during a 3-day camping trip. If—when needed—I could add a larger battery and charge while driving, it would help us out here in the charging and literal deserts of the US Southwest. Even without this, a ~20 kWh auxiliary battery in the bed, along with 1+ kW of solar, would give me enough range to spend a couple weeks overlanding without having to go to a charging station. But the extra ability to charge while driving would open up a few even more remote spaces.

You couldn’t pay me to go back to using dead dino juice. I am all-EV because I can’t stand gas stations, the time wasted going to gas stations, nor the smell, noise, and emissions of gas engines. To me, a fossil-fuel generator is the least-interesting way of getting extra range.

Martin is the business guy, he is working on branding as we speak and his first videos will be coming out in a few weeks. I love the battery idea, but if you can't put at least 20kWhr in there (3hrs of 7kW extending) I'm not sure it is worth it. I've tested this thousands of miles at 7kw and it essentially gets me an ER truck range from my SR at 70mph highway travel. 11kw which all Lightnings can charge at will be really good. But I can tell you the it's-worth-it economic threshold is somewhere above 7kW and batteries are expensive.

 

[ZSC100]

We really need to work on a noise isolation kit first!!

The inverter gens are night and day from the open frame.

 

[Yellow Buddy]

The inverter gens are night and day from the open frame.

That’s good to know.

I like this more than a hybrid idea, throwing this in for when I tow. I’ll lose a little bit of payload but gain a ton of range and I still have my frunk for the other 90% of my driving

 

[Heliian]

charging at a sustained 11 kWh.

hardware and software

The charging system is going to freak out with the varying current and voltage of driving.

 

[SpaceEVDriver]

There is another thread with more info.
https://www.f150lightningforum.com/...ed-range-extending-for-f-150-lightning.29842/

I read that thread too. There’s very little information I can use to evaluate whether it’s a product I would want. Claims don’t help. I need data.

Some lack of information is somewhat fine if they’re trying to beat any potential competitors to market. But it also leads to a lot of inconsistencies and for me a healthy distrust of the claims.

I’d like to see more actual hardware, a discussion of the process of how they are installing it. Are they splicing HV wires? Have they built a y-connector for some HV connector? What are the losses and ratings on those connectors? I’d also like to see an analysis of what the truck thinks has happened to the battery. For example, what was the starting SoH before the thousands of miles driven while testing and what was the SoH after? What are the various voltage leakages? What are the resistances the battery is reporting? What are the DTCs they’ve had and what are the ones likely to happen now that they’ve refined their product?

I would have an entire slew of additional questions after the first round are answered.

Martin is the business guy, he is working on branding as we speak and his first videos will be coming out in a few weeks. I love the battery idea, but if you can't put at least 20kWhr in there (3hrs of 7kW extending) I'm not sure it is worth it. I've tested this thousands of miles at 7kw and it essentially gets me an ER truck range from my SR at 70mph highway travel. 11kw which all Lightnings can charge at will be really good. But I can tell you the it's-worth-it economic threshold is somewhere above 7kW and batteries are expensive.

On the inverter cost side:

I wouldn’t pay the $2k for the inverter generator plus the extra mess of gas or propane, wasted time at two different refueling stations, inconsistent behaviors when the generator is on a slope or I’m at elevation, or under acceleration, etc., etc., etc… No, thanks. Again, I bought an EV to escape exactly all this.

I’d happily skip the generator and pay $5k for a 23 kWh battery + 16.5 kVA inverter. For that cost, I would get a silent, rock-solid and consistent output voltage from the auxiliary battery and a consistent proffered charge rate that isn’t dependent on external, uncontrollable variables. I would also be able to move the battery & inverter to my shop for use when I’m not traveling.

The battery+inverter I have my sights on has a volume of 0.22 m^3 while the generator in your test is 0.33 m^3, so the battery takes up less space in the bed. It’s 441 pounds, while the generator is 187.4 pounds + 48.8 pounds of gasoline = 236 pounds, plus another 30 pounds if I wanted to bring a spare 5 gallons just in case. The 175 pound difference would have minimal impact on my cargo capacity, especially considering I wouldn’t want anything else in the bed with a generator running.

Plus I can recharge the battery while I’m out in the boonies far from any source of fuel other than solar.

I really hope this is real and would love to buy the real deal, DIY install product if it makes it to market and is compatible with any EVSE.

 

[Firn]

I’d happily skip the generator and pay $5k for a 23 kWh battery + 16.5 kVA inverter. For that cost, I would get a silent, rock-solid and consistent output voltage from the auxiliary battery and a consistent proffered charge rate that isn’t dependent on external, uncontrollable variables. I would also be able to move the battery & inverter to my shop for use when I’m not traveling.

To each their own, but IMO dropping $5,000 to get less than 50 miles of range and then have to wait for that to recharge (it likely wont charge anywhere near as fast as the main pack) is far from what most who are interested in range extension want.

You could charge it off the pro power, but that would take nearly 4 hours to do, so to do it in any less time would also require a separate dedicated (slow) recharging stop on top of the stop to recharge the main truck battery.

That is, in essence, a one-time 50 mile extension.

Edit. Thinking about it more a second ccs connection could be possible. Is such a pack possible?

 

[ElectrifyingMe25]

Well, hmmm.

I can't see buying a $1k-to-$2k inverter generator plus gas or propane and oil plus the adaption costs (?) - vs - fast DC charging for $0.30-to-$0.60 per kWh unless I was long-distance driving very frequently in areas where the is no charging infrastructure, or didn't want to stop to charge for some reason (in a hurry).

Although this Westinghouse iGen11000DFc Inverter Generator is a relatively quiet generator (64dbA in spec) it still is going to make some noise which might get on one's nerves after a while?

No longer a zero tail pipe emissions truck when chugging along with a running generator.

So, 240V 30A output socket, L2 - what is the cost per kWh of the generator?

Ignoring the capital costs, 240V x 30A x 17hrs on about 8 gallons of gasoline $25.60 (avg about $3.20/gallon) so $25.60/(7.2kW x 17hrs)=about 20 cents/kWh about what you might pay for fast DC charging on the road.

(Note: shorter run time on propane is 9.8 hrs)

The predicted life span of the iGen11000DFc Inverter Generator is approximately 2,000 hours based on on-line info.

So estimate a total of 7.2kW x 2000hrs = 14400kWh.
Lifetime operating fuel costs (x 20 cents gasoline/kWh) = $2,880

Generator cost (Amazon price) = $1899.
$2880 + $1899 = $4779 --- $4779/2000hrs = $2.39 per hr cost of use, or
$2.39/7.2kWh = $0.33/kWh cost of use over the lifetime.

So the lifetime cost per kWh is at least 53 cents (20 cents gasoline + 33 cents use) depending on how many lifetime hours you get and the cost of gasoline per gallon.

Cost of the J1772 modification and cost of oil changes and other maintenance not factored in.

And some of your bed space is used by the generator footprint and weight is added to your payload.

The dry weight is 187lbs, add 8 gals gas and it's 187lbs + 48 lbs = 235lbs approx. full tank.

Just ballpark numbers.

We aim to make it 100% plug and Play. So, if you had any concerns like that you could unplug and uninstall it before taking your truck in. Also, I started playing with this 20kmi ago in the shop and I have put both the truck and on-board charger through development hell. I have caused every fault and DTC the truck can set related to charging many times and the truck just recovers and starts working again perfectly. I really can't brag enough on the resiliency of the power electronics in these trucks hardware.

Go man, Go! I will likely buy a kit when you get everything lined out. This is such a cool addition to the Lightning. You are helping us have our cake and eat it too. Who needs a RAM Charger truck when you can add the Charge-While-Driving [CWD] feature for a few thousand dollars. RAM was talking about charging close to $100K for a range extending truck.

Thanks Electrical Engineer.....

If I see more evidence that this is real and the hardware and software has the required safety features to protect the system, leave no trace, and not void the battery warranty, I would consider it for use with a temporary auxiliary battery in the bed for our longer overlanding trips. But at this point this is an extraordinary claim without enough convincing extraordinary evidence for me to open a checkbook.

I really hope this is real and not another Phantom gaming console kind of product. My feeling is that it’s real, and the lack of some data/evidence is simply due to the OP’s excitement, desire to share, and apparent lack of business experience. I’m not trying to be rude, just extremely cautious.

I run a small auxiliary battery (5 kWh) in the bed of the truck for when we’re parked on our camping trips. That auxiliary battery plus solar gives us 30-50 miles of extra range during a 3-day camping trip. If—when needed—I could add a larger battery and charge while driving, it would help us out here in the charging and literal deserts of the US Southwest. Even without this, a ~20 kWh auxiliary battery in the bed, along with 1+ kW of solar, would give me enough range to spend a couple weeks overlanding without having to go to a charging station. But the extra ability to charge while driving would open up a few even more remote spaces.

You couldn’t pay me to go back to using dead dino juice. I am all-EV because I can’t stand gas stations, the time wasted going to gas stations, nor the smell, noise, and emissions of gas engines. To me, a fossil-fuel generator is the least-interesting way of getting extra range.

Go man, Go! I will likely buy a kit when you get everything lined out. This is such a cool addition to the Lightning. You are helping us have our cake and eat it too. Who needs a RAM Charger truck when you can add the Charge-While-Driving [CWD] feature for a few thousand dollars. RAM was talking about charging close to $100K for a range extending truck.

To each their own, but IMO dropping $5,000 to get less than 50 miles of range and then have to wait for that to recharge (it likely wont charge anywhere near as fast as the main pack) is far from what most who are interested in range extension want.

You could charge it off the pro power, but that would take nearly 4 hours to do, so to do it in any less time would also require a separate dedicated (slow) recharging stop on top of the stop to recharge the main truck battery.

That is, in essence, a one-time 50 mile extension.

Edit. Thinking about it more a second ccs connection could be possible. Is such a pack possible?

Go man, Go! I will likely buy a kit when you get everything lined out. This is such a cool addition to the Lightning. You are helping us have our cake and eat it too. Who needs a RAM Charger truck when you can add the Charge-While-Driving [CWD] feature for a few thousand dollars. RAM was talking about charging close to $100K for a range extending truck.

We aim to make it 100% plug and Play. So, if you had any concerns like that you could unplug and uninstall it before taking your truck in. Also, I started playing with this 20kmi ago in the shop and I have put both the truck and on-board charger through development hell. I have caused every fault and DTC the truck can set related to charging many times and the truck just recovers and starts working again perfectly. I really can't brag enough on the resiliency of the power electronics in these trucks hardware.

SIMPLE DEVICES exist that can be added to generators to disconnect power if the frequency drifts off of 60Hz.

 

[SpaceEVDriver]

To each their own, but IMO dropping $5,000 to get less than 50 miles of range and then have to wait for that to recharge (it likely wont charge anywhere near as fast as the main pack) is far from what most who are interested in range extension want.

And I don't see any point in spending even $100 on a generator and gas. I spent $33k and a Tacoma to get away from all of that. Why in the world would I spend additional money to go back?!

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