In Production Solid State Battery Tech? Potential for Aftermarket Lightning Pack upgrades?!

[02Reaper]

Seems like it may be too good to be true.

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[ZeusDriver]

This is reminiscent of EEstor (a company that fraudulently promoted a super capacitors as an alternative to lead acid and lithium batteries). There is nothing about the batteries that rings true for today's tech state of the art: just outlandish claims piled on other outlandish claims*. Solid state batteries will arrive, to good effect, but development has taken time, and has involved loads of people with deep scientific backgrounds -- which appears lacking in Donut.

The motorcycle seems plausible, but if the claim of affordability were true, then it would be a $11,500, to compete with a Honda CBR 600rr instead of $45K.

The Honda's rear wheel torque in first gear is higher than the Verge's (roughly 830 lb ft vs 737 lb ft). Of course, the Verge's rear wheel torque diminishes as the speed increases, just as the Honda's does as it is upshifted. The claimed 0-60 time for the Verge is worse than the Honda's, but still respectable -- it's slightly quicker than an F150 Lightning.

A "journalist" rode a Verge and thought it was pretty fast, but did not provide any of the data that a real road test in one of the old cycle mags would. That writer mentioned that the ride was awful, as would be expected from having a very poor ratio of sprung to unsprung weight. (Eyeballing an F150, I'd guess that unsprung weight at each wheel is about 200 lb. So the ratio of one wheel unsprung weight to sprung in an empty truck is about 6000/200: say 1:30. In the Verge, I'd guess that rear unsprung weight alone is 80 lbs with sprung being 320, maybe: so 1:4. Granted the rider serves as additional sprung weight.)

Dangerous? Yes, probably. But in the same way that an old hard tail motorcycle is dangerous... those who did not die learned to go slow through bumpy turns. I've done a couple 24 hour motorcycle road races. Would I want to be on a Verge? No.

The Lightning's ride is almost universally praised, owing, in large part, to its independent rear suspension, which reduces unsprung weight.

But does the Verge appear to function? Yes. Is it clear that it is powered by a production version of the Donut battery -- whatever undisclosed chemistry that may be? That is not clear to me. I doubt that it is. Otherwise, the price would be much lower, in keeping with their stated benefit.

I have not done a patent search, but those who have point out that there are no patents on the Donut battery tech. Suspicious?

Here's what someone on Reddit had to say re Donut and Verge:


ON THE OTHER HAND:
Toyota has talked about having production 450-500 Wh/kg batteries out by 2027/2028 (but putting them in expensive vehicles where the higher initial cost can be better absorbed). They have not mentioned anything remotely close to 100,000 cycle life.

Perhaps Donut/Verge need to hire Munro to do a teardown and some battery cycle testing. (Let's see: 100,000 cycles times 10 minutes to charge. 10 minutes to discharge; that's almost 4 years.)

* Almost as wild as a truck manufacturer advertising a $39,995 price for an electric work truck.




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[chriserx]

I'm not going to go into whether the Verge's SSB is vaporware or not, but good points were made here, and more or less the same ones I've made. That being said, always check your sources and the extra coloring they may add and their motives to do so. Your source is a QuantumScape battery reddit, a (potential) competitor.

Seems like it may be too good to be true.

 

[TaxmanHog]

I hope this doesn't turn into another massive scheme ..... having been bitten as a REG-A investor of Atlis Motor Vehicle {AMV} aka {NXU} before their dissolution in the fall of 2025!

 

[fhteagle]

I hope this doesn't turn into another massive scheme ..... having been bitten as a REG-A investor of Atlas Motor Vehicle {AMV} aka {NXU} before their dissolution in the fall of 2025!

Atlis was a fun YouTube channel for a minute. But not surprised in the slightest they never made it to minimum viable product when they kept switching up the story about what the product they were aiming for was.

 

[ZeusDriver]

If I were Donut, I would also favor using a motorcycle as a testbed, because existing fast chargers can charge a small battery (but not a 100 kWh one) in 5 minutes. The bike already has a NACS charge port.

So who knows? Perhaps they have managed to create a supercapacitor with slow enough leak down to be serviceable. Their 100,000 cycles does not make sense for a SSB (or any chemical battery) but is feasible for a supercapacitor.

 

[chriserx]

Atlis was a fun YouTube channel for a minute. But not surprised in the slightest they never made it to minimum viable product when they kept switching up the story about what the product they were aiming for was.

Perhaps they should've mapped out their target consumers with, I dunno, an atlas.

 

[TaxmanHog]

Perhaps they should've mapped out their target consumers with, I dunno, an atlas.

Corrected my typo.

 

[TaxmanHog]

Live Wire vlogger that I follow, his take on this.............

 

[dm5point0]

BMW and VW are already putting SSBs into production with tech from QuantumScape, Samsung and Solid Power. It is closer than we think. Not to mention BYD will probably get it there before anyone else.

 

[dww]

If this is real I’ll eat a hat. They have the best battery tech the world has ever seen and they are launching it in a low volume bespoke motorcycle? Among the most valuable companies in the world Apple and Tesla (as well as every automotive 12V you have ever owned) would kill for a battery that lasts (basically) forever, works in any environment and is cheaper and lighter than anything available. We’re just going to waste the world’s time getting this to make a motorcycle and if you have any other ideas call us. CATL/BYD/LG/Panasonic/Tesla/Apple/Samsung would pay billions for this but you’re going to make a motorcycle. Ok, no. It’s not real.

 

[RickLightning]

Everyone should keep in mind that companies are supposed to generate profits [tongue-in-cheek] design those products for markets that make economic sense to be in. If a company had a product that was designed to do battery replacements in EVs, one would target those replacements to populations of EV batteries that had the scale to make economic sense. Given that the Lightning has about 100,000 vehicles on the road, as compared to other makes and models, I can't imagine that Lightnings would be anywhere near the top of the list for this type of replacement technology.

 

[dm5point0]

If this is real I’ll eat a hat. They have the best battery tech the world has ever seen and they are launching it in a low volume bespoke motorcycle? Among the most valuable companies in the world Apple and Tesla (as well as every automotive 12V you have ever owned) would kill for a battery that lasts (basically) forever, works in any environment and is cheaper and lighter than anything available. We’re just going to waste the world’s time getting this to make a motorcycle and if you have any other ideas call us. CATL/BYD/LG/Panasonic/Tesla/Apple/Samsung would pay billions for this but you’re going to make a motorcycle. Ok, no. It’s not real.

Regardless of the Donut claims...SSB and Sodium SSBs are real. Look up QuantumScape and Solid Power:
https://www.quantumscape.com/
https://solidpowerbattery.com/overview/default.aspx

Those are the companies that have been doing this for years now and have deal with major brands (VW and BMW). Matt Ferrell has been covering them for a while.

https://www.youtube.com/@UndecidedMF

 

[dww]

Regardless of the Donut claims...SSB and Sodium SSBs are real. Look up QuantumScape and Solid Power:
https://www.quantumscape.com/
https://solidpowerbattery.com/overview/default.aspx

Those are the companies that have been doing this for years now and have deal with major brands (VW and BMW). Matt Ferrell has been covering them for a while.

https://www.youtube.com/@UndecidedMF

I’m specifically referencing Donut, not all SSBs.

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