Charging While Driving Works w/ Gas Generator in Bed (Range Extending for F-150 Lightning)

[RocketGhost]

This is really interesting, and even if it's not marketable it's great research. It would be a good for the rare situations when there isn't a more practical option.

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[Storx]

Redacted post by Martin from FB:
***Martin Rebuilds Tow Rig Update / Charge While Driving News***

TLDR - In short:
-Charge while driving works

Some of you know me know and know I am huge Ford and particularly Lightning fan. I run Martin Rebuilds and host the Tech Charged podcast with Christopher Bowe and Jace Craft-Miller. Over the last couple years I've have several Lightnings at the shop and have clocked nearly 100k miles towing all over the nation and Canada. The Lightning is hands down the best towing truck (under 10k lbs) I have ever owned. This is coming from owning multiple brands and sizes of every truck made and I still stand behind my belief that the Lightning is the best. In fact, we just bought a "new to us" 23 ER Lariat max tow for the shop but a change is needed.

Charge While Driving News - As some of you know, I have been working with Zachary Scott Carpenter and Patrick Cheung on a generator that can charge the Lightning while driving down the road. Last week Zach had a very successful test logging over 700 miles running a Ford branded generator while running down the highway at 70mph. It was able to move the efficiency from 1.8 mi/kwh to an impressive 2.3 mi/kwh adding 50 miles of range out of a measly 7kw ford mobile charger. With a much larger generator we expect to nearly double the Lightnings range. See the chart below for what to expect at different speeds and generator sizes.

Genset test upside - The range added will only be limited by 2 factors, 1. How much generator you put in. 2. How big the on board charger in the Lightning is. The 2022 and 2023 Lightning have 80 amp charging so you will see up to 19kw added which means over 500 miles of range. The 2024+ Lightning has 48 amp charging so we expect to see 350 miles of range.

Genset test downside - In the interest of honesty and transparency, which is the core value of my YouTube Channel, the biggest downside I have with the generator is the noise level. To be fair, we tested this with a really loud generator and a lot can be done to quiet these things down. Inverter generators are much quieter and sound proofing can be added to reduce the noise.

My Take on Range Extending - With the shop getting more busy, increasing the volume of towing coupled with several long distance vacations a year, the need for a longer distance tow rig is real. For me, the best 2 things about the lightning are the quiet cabin and the incredible power. Those 2 things are THE reasons I have stayed with the lightning for so long. With that said, my opinion is adding a generator to the truck takes away from the Lightning experience so we have decided to change our tow rig. Instead of trying to add a generator to the Lightning or range extending it, we are going to a larger battery truck.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I am Zach the electrical engineer talked about in this post and I met Martin in Joplin the day after this test:


I just got back to Tulsa and put almost 1000mi on my truck driving while charging @ 7kW.

I am not as concerned with the noise as Martin suddenly was when he took a drive with me, but I AM 100% positive that an inverter generator with sound attenuation is a must for this project. We're still not sure how we'll release this to the public, what will be included, what we'll be selling, or what generator we'll be doing the final testing with, but I have ordered this generator:
https://www.lowes.com/pd/Westinghou...ane-Natural-Gas-Inverter-Generator/5016661947

I am also proceeding with programming many features like auto generator start/stop based on speed, modification/real time calculation of the GoM, generator fuel level reporting on the infotainment screen, full control to configure the charging rate at all times, and more. I should have more updates this weekend and more testing.

Please don't clog this thread up with stupid comments and/or safety Karen worries. Martin and I are both engineers and will fully test every aspect of this mod before we release anything to the community. I want this to be a technical brainstorming discussion and hear some other's perspectives. Martin can get on here and post his range extending estimation spreadsheet soon. Thanks, ~Zach

Nice video, I am curious if you are using the same trickery as the guy in space coast florida that runs a lawn care company. I met him at an EV event where he showed off his solar setup. He has a charger connected to his truck via a 2nd charge port on the rear bumper with the power coming from his lawncare enclosed trailer that has a solar system to power his entire solar lawncare equipment setup. He had the ford branded home grid setup installed on the trailer. He said he was able to run power bi-directional through the setup between the trailer and truck.

 

[jdmackes]

This seems pretty amazing to me and opens up lots of possibilities, I'm excited to see where this leads!

 

[ZSC100]

Nice video, I am curious if you are using the same trickery as the guy in space coast florida that runs a lawn care company. I met him at an EV event where he showed off his solar setup. He has a charger connected to his truck via a 2nd charge port on the rear bumper with the power coming from his lawncare enclosed trailer that has a solar system to power his entire solar lawncare equipment setup. He had the ford branded home grid setup installed on the trailer. He said he was able to run power bi-directional through the setup between the trailer and truck.

I doubt it, but if you know how to get a hold of him I'd love to see him make a thread here in this same forum/category so we can all see and comment. Sounds like a HV DC link if I had to guess. What we're doing here is very simple and basic, just charging the truck like normal with the normal OEM on board battery charger. The only thing unique we've done is find and filter out the CAN messages that inhibit the truck from going into gear. It's really a very simple hack and I'm honestly surprised we seem the be the first to do it.

 

[tearitupsports]

I have a few questions and notes:
How many hours can a small generator like this actually run at full output (from a maintenance standpoint)?

Can your charging hack work with DC charging?

It would take about a 40kW or higher generator to basically run the truck indefinitely, but AC charging only maxes out 19kW (for older truck versions). There are DC charge options at 25 kW or higher though.

The westinghouse 20kW generator uses about 2.1 gallons / hour at full load. At 1.8 miles / kWh and not counting electric conversion losses that calculates about 36 miles added per hour and around 17 mpg.

 

[Firn]

There is also the generator disguised as toolbox patent
https://www.thedrive.com/news/36793...-extending-gas-generator-disguised-as-toolbox
Discussed by us here:
https://www.f150lightningforum.com/...ic-f-150-ev-could-be-powered-by-gasoline.377/

Might want to do some research before making that claim...

https://www.[banned site]/threads/ford-files-patent-for-roof-mounted-backup-ev-battery.4060/

Put in the words [truck we own]Owners and the .com.

https://fordauthority.com/2024/11/ford-patent-filed-for-range-extended-electric-vehicle/

https://ev.com/news/ford-files-pate...p-battery-swapping-system-for-evs&blogId=2797

There are lots of range extender designs and patents out there, extenders themselves or components of them. That wasn't what I was describing.

I'm speaking specifically to a standardized connecter designed to work alone, with, or integrat into, the trailer connector that is purposely designed to transfer power from an external source into the battery (or onboard charger). The construction, design, and format for doing so.

Very much just J-1776 or CCS, but designed specifically to handle the pressures of being mounted on say a trailer or external source that will be constantly flexing, moving, vibrating, or otherwise subject to stresses the existing connectors are not designed for.

It isnt the extender itself, its the connection standard for ANY external power source providing energy WHILE driving.

 

[ZSC100]

I have a few questions and notes:
How many hours can a small generator like this actually run at full output (from a maintenance standpoint)?

Can your charging hack work with DC charging?

It would take about a 40kW or higher generator to basically run the truck indefinitely, but AC charging only maxes out 19kW (for older truck versions). There are DC charge options at 25 kW or higher though.

The westinghouse 20kW generator uses about 2.1 gallons / hour at full load. At 1.8 miles / kWh and not counting electric conversion losses that calculates about 36 miles added per hour and around 17 mpg.

These are great questions, anything is possible with money? The economics of this are simple, if you can afford to own a Lightning for your every day driver and a ICE truck for road trips then you aren't interested in this at all, in fact you probably view it as dumb.

So, in that same line of thinking, if you can afford an ER truck you might also think the above way, so the difference $$ spread here seems to be around $10k, at least that's where my economic brain goes. So, neglecting all the other logistics and issues with a bigger generator, we're stuck with the fact that any generator over the portable 10kW size quickly becomes an issue in more way that one, weight, size, cost, NVH affects, fuel capacity.... For this to be practical it needs to be something someone can throw in the bed easily / quickly and take off on a weekend road trip. These are just some of my thoughts, but I welcome others.

I'm actually thinking now after reading comments that a 2nd J1772 port in the bed is the way to go. Using an off the shelf EVSE, even the Ford mobile one is just one less cost of the modification hardware to the end user. Martin argued this should be a bring your own generator offering, but after hearing the standard (open frame) generator he was like, Ohhh fuck this, I value my silent lightning over ANY range extension,, LOL He swung a bit far the opposite way IMO, but I'm with him mostly on the NVH issue, which I why I immediately ordered the inverter generator yesterday.

As for how long can any generator can last at load, I think you'd be surprised. I've got 40hrs on that Ford open frame generator at 7kW and it's still like brand new, oil change every 2000hrs is probably a good idea.

 

[BluesClues]

Send it.

 

[CavRider]

These are great questions, anything is possible with money? The economics of this are simple, if you can afford to own a Lightning for your every day driver and a ICE truck for road trips then you aren't interested in this at all, in fact you probably view it as dumb.

I am in this camp except for everything bolded there. I find your investigation very intriguing and most certainly not dumb. I assume a majority of EV owners (and potential owners) are not positioned as I am and I believe a range extender sort of solution would be helpful in easing adoption.

As I pointed out in an earlier post I do have at least one use case that renders the Lightning well short of ideal if not downright useless just as it is. No doubt I could try to hunt up an RV park in the region of the Ash River or else a resort with an open 220V circuit who would be willing to sell me some electrons. But when I put the boat on the hitch of my tow vehicle I prefer to fit the description "fisherman" and not "EV pioneer". Therefore I will be following along your investigation with great interest even though I have no immediate need.

Edit: I should add that IMHO without substantial government funding I really doubt there are any DCFC locations coming to the area of Voyageurs National Park anytime soon. Maybe a destination charger though. Even that would be a huge help.

 

[ctuan13]

Redacted post by Martin from FB:
***Martin Rebuilds Tow Rig Update / Charge While Driving News***

TLDR - In short:
-Charge while driving works

Some of you know me know and know I am huge Ford and particularly Lightning fan. I run Martin Rebuilds and host the Tech Charged podcast with Christopher Bowe and Jace Craft-Miller. Over the last couple years I've have several Lightnings at the shop and have clocked nearly 100k miles towing all over the nation and Canada. The Lightning is hands down the best towing truck (under 10k lbs) I have ever owned. This is coming from owning multiple brands and sizes of every truck made and I still stand behind my belief that the Lightning is the best. In fact, we just bought a "new to us" 23 ER Lariat max tow for the shop but a change is needed.

Charge While Driving News - As some of you know, I have been working with Zachary Scott Carpenter and Patrick Cheung on a generator that can charge the Lightning while driving down the road. Last week Zach had a very successful test logging over 700 miles running a Ford branded generator while running down the highway at 70mph. It was able to move the efficiency from 1.8 mi/kwh to an impressive 2.3 mi/kwh adding 50 miles of range out of a measly 7kw ford mobile charger. With a much larger generator we expect to nearly double the Lightnings range. See the chart below for what to expect at different speeds and generator sizes.

Genset test upside - The range added will only be limited by 2 factors, 1. How much generator you put in. 2. How big the on board charger in the Lightning is. The 2022 and 2023 Lightning have 80 amp charging so you will see up to 19kw added which means over 500 miles of range. The 2024+ Lightning has 48 amp charging so we expect to see 350 miles of range.

Genset test downside - In the interest of honesty and transparency, which is the core value of my YouTube Channel, the biggest downside I have with the generator is the noise level. To be fair, we tested this with a really loud generator and a lot can be done to quiet these things down. Inverter generators are much quieter and sound proofing can be added to reduce the noise.

My Take on Range Extending - With the shop getting more busy, increasing the volume of towing coupled with several long distance vacations a year, the need for a longer distance tow rig is real. For me, the best 2 things about the lightning are the quiet cabin and the incredible power. Those 2 things are THE reasons I have stayed with the lightning for so long. With that said, my opinion is adding a generator to the truck takes away from the Lightning experience so we have decided to change our tow rig. Instead of trying to add a generator to the Lightning or range extending it, we are going to a larger battery truck.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I am Zach the electrical engineer talked about in this post and I met Martin in Joplin the day after this test:


I just got back to Tulsa and put almost 1000mi on my truck driving while charging @ 7kW.

I am not as concerned with the noise as Martin suddenly was when he took a drive with me, but I AM 100% positive that an inverter generator with sound attenuation is a must for this project. We're still not sure how we'll release this to the public, what will be included, what we'll be selling, or what generator we'll be doing the final testing with, but I have ordered this generator:
https://www.lowes.com/pd/Westinghou...ane-Natural-Gas-Inverter-Generator/5016661947

I am also proceeding with programming many features like auto generator start/stop based on speed, modification/real time calculation of the GoM, generator fuel level reporting on the infotainment screen, full control to configure the charging rate at all times, and more. I should have more updates this weekend and more testing.

Please don't clog this thread up with stupid comments and/or safety Karen worries. Martin and I are both engineers and will fully test every aspect of this mod before we release anything to the community. I want this to be a technical brainstorming discussion and hear some other's perspectives. Martin can get on here and post his range extending estimation spreadsheet soon. Thanks, ~Zach

Thank you so much for this post! And also thank you yo being committed to giving us the info to implement this safely ourselves. There have been past forum members who have also devised systems for charging while in motion, and have frustratingly gatekept the info.

I look forward to your updates!

 

[P-38]

This is awesome!

I'm interested for towing purposes to just stretch it a little more or when I need a fast trip but it's 0F outside.

 

[Firn]

Have you monitored any voltage lag in the onboard inverters?

The onboard inverter is responsible for matching the pack voltage to provide charging, but pack voltage can change a fair bit under load. I'm wondering how well the inverter keeps up with those changes.

Generator? Just put a Tesla power wall in your RV!

 

[tls]

If this is truly accomplished, I’m intrigued. The video shows nothing of value, though. It’s just a generator charging a truck while the truck is parked. Show us the view from a go-pro on the side of the vehicle showing the EVSE plugged in while driving, that will at least begin to be believable.

I have zero interest in a gas generator.

I’d install ~120 kWh of additional battery into a camping trailer and use that to charge while on the road. Install a CCS1 charge controller into the trailer and I can DCFC charge both at once when there are enough open stalls or from the truck’s Pro Power while the truck is charging.

What would you use for a charge controller? I see a couple of options that are commercially available, one from LegacyEV.com and one from OpenInverter.org, but they seem like they're more kits than off-the-shelf solutions - all the LegacyEV options seem to require integration with a host computer via CAN, while the OpenInverter board is just a board - you even have to supply your own contactors.

 

[tls]

How would you then pull a boat trailer?

 

[Jseis]

One of the most comical discussions I’ve read. Like the story of the new Model T owner buying a makeshift trailer to tow his horse & hay to extend his err… range. . Yee Haw !

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