Charging While Driving Works w/ Gas Generator in Bed (Range Extending for F-150 Lightning)

[ZSC100]

What excites me the most about this is the potential to add an additional battery pack in the bed for when it's needed, especially if there's one people could get from junkyard evs or something that would fit well in the bed. I'd prefer that over a generator, but obviously the cost would be higher. Either way, this discussion is very interesting and I'm excited for the potential!

The problem with batteries is and will always be standardization. Batteries just are not standardized in any way, voltage, cell arrangement, physical size, weight, chemistry, thermal characteristics, instant load capability, etc. and all these things are intertwined and require extensive engineering and testing to get right. Ohh, and new battery designs happen yearly . I'm afraid there will never be a simple way to BYOBatts to any EV. The best we can hope for is an extremely versaitle and open source DC-DC converter with uber flexible BMS capabilities and uber flexible CAN communications and user interface. The sad thing is that even if such a thing existed it would take engineering level maker skills to just go buy a used EV battery or any other batteries and make it all work. Generators are just the opposite and standardized to almost level Ludicrous.

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[ZSC100]

The problem with batteries is and will always be standardization. Batteries just are not standardized in any way, voltage, cell arrangement, physical size, weight, chemistry, thermal characteristics, instant load capability, etc. and all these things are intertwined and require extensive engineering and testing to get right. Ohh, and new battery designs happen yearly . I'm afraid there will never be a simple way to BYOBatts to any EV. The best we can hope for is an extremely versaitle and open source DC-DC converter with uber flexible BMS capabilities and uber flexible CAN communications and user interface. The sad thing is that even if such a thing existed it would take engineering level maker skills to just go buy a used EV battery or any other batteries and make it all work. Generators are just the opposite and standardized to almost level Ludicrous.

My bad with the ONE exception of the UPS used as a turn key item like Robert mentioned above producing standardized voltage/freq AC just as a standardized generator does. This may actually be an elegant alternative use for industrial UPSs, but I suspect the total losses will be ugly. Maybe tolerable, but ugly.

 

[Yellow Buddy]

The problem with batteries is and will always be standardization. Batteries just are not standardized in any way, voltage, cell arrangement, physical size, weight, chemistry, thermal characteristics, instant load capability, etc. and all these things are intertwined and require extensive engineering and testing to get right. Ohh, and new battery designs happen yearly . I'm afraid there will never be a simple way to BYOBatts to any EV. The best we can hope for is an extremely versaitle and open source DC-DC converter with uber flexible BMS capabilities and uber flexible CAN communications and user interface. The sad thing is that even if such a thing existed it would take engineering level maker skills to just go buy a used EV battery or any other batteries and make it all work. Generators are just the opposite and standardized to almost level Ludicrous.

Without overcomplicating it, I would imagine it’s an AC inverter tied to the battery bank to retain the method used in the video. To get a charging rate of 80A/240V assuming 0.1c would require a massive battery though, one bigger than what’s available on the truck.

The other problem i see is that at 70mph, our trucks already travel 4+ hours (ER) how much more can a bladder take? And in a towing situation, a heavy battery will eat up payload and gawr…unless someone builds a custom trailer with its own battery pack. But we’re no longer talking easy implementation.

 

[PJnc284]

Just pull an out of spec. They put an extra battery in a leaf. Shame we can't all have one of these following us

 

[Shaw1984]

I just drove my 24 ER Flash from Tulsa to Amarillo. This would have made the trip way easier. Not a lot of charging in certain directions. As well as trips to Dallas and back in the same day. And South Arkansas. And Louisiana. And Houston. And when doing lots of towing. This makes an insane amount of sense. I don’t want the maintenance of a big engine, I want my frunk, and I can remove it when not needed

I love the lightning and it is hands down better than a gas truck. Just wish it had a better range and charge rate/curve. I work in electrical and automation. I would love to try this solution. I got a 13kw generator sitting at home with nothing to do but make my long road trips easier….

maybe there is a way to tap the chargeport from the back, route the cable under the cab, and connect to the generator in the bed for a clean look?

Maybe I could test next???

 

[hturnerfamily]

I remained amazed that so many of us are intent on these forums about considering hauling around 'gas powered noisy and fuel-guzzling generators', while we pontificate and enjoy the value of our 'green' and 'silent' EVs...

why don't we just drive a gas truck?


oh my

 

[fhteagle]

I haven't read the whole thread, but I did watch the video posted by OP. Looks like the only "innovation" here is tricking the truck into going into gear with something plugged into the charge port. That's against FMVSS or SAE specs AFAIK.

But the way you have this genset set up, there is a completely unnecessary AC to DC conversion step. Find a DC gen and get it connected to the HVDC bus instead, a la what James Klafehn did. I do not recommend copying his safety culture, but at least he proved external DC to Lightning is doable.

 

[ZSC100]

I haven't read the whole thread, but I did watch the video posted by OP. Looks like the only "innovation" here is tricking the truck into going into gear with something plugged into the charge port. That's against FMVSS or SAE specs AFAIK.

But the way you have this genset set up, there is a completely unnecessary AC to DC conversion step. Find a DC gen and get it connected to the HVDC bus instead, a la what James Klafehn did. I do not recommend copying his safety culture, but at least he proved external DC to Lightning is doable.

This mod has nothing to do with FMVSS or SAE because we (owners) are not bound by any of that as owners. We are making a modification for a specific function, so yes, we are simply bypassing the warning/interlock that keeps people from driving off with a charger plugged in which would most definitely happen often if not in place. I can't tell you how many times I've jumped in my truck in a hurry and not been able to take off b/c the IPC says, "disconnect charger before starting vehicle".

For this reason I will take very special care to retain this functionality 100% b/c if I don't I will be the first one to rip my Level 2 charger off the wall.

2nd, ALL electromechanical/rotational generators generate AC. That's a fundamental physics truth based on the nature of electromagnetic induction. So, in fact there's no better way to do it than what is being done with the truck's built in on board charger(s).

Of course if your source is a battery (DC by nature) then going straight to your truck's HV battery (DC to DC) is best. If the goal is ever to go beyond the truck's max onboard chargers' capability of 11.5/19kW then we're probably talking about a completely different project at that point and the charger would probably be better housed with the generator and providing HV DC directly to the truck's battery.

 

[RLXXI]

Lets discuss !
I have this equipment:
3-12kW SRNE 120/240 inverters (two of these run my home and business, one is Spare)
10 - 304Ah 48V LiFePO4 (15kW each) rack batteries

But I don't know how this can charge while the truck is moving ? Your bed-attached J1772 port idea has my attention - since it could plug and play with several options for alternative power.

I'd like to have your storage capacity lol. Only have 850ah at 51.2v so far. As to using them in the truck I'm going to have to say the weight would be prohibitive. You'd be "squatting" every where you went.

 

[ZSC100]

I'd like to have your storage capacity lol. Only have 850ah at 51.2v so far. As to using them in the truck I'm going to have to say the weight would be prohibitive. You'd be "squatting" every where you went.

""
I have toyed with the idea of making a frame for the truck bed to hold 3, 15kWh 48v server rack packs, about 650 lbs.
""
45kWhr for 650lbs, that's a great power density, same weight as 3 adults for an extra 100mi of range. What truck would that "squat", I wouldn't even notice that much weight in my truck?

Now for convenience of throwing it in the truck once a week, yea, that's too much for even 2 strong men to lift, so, this would require a unique solution and an unique use case, but it's doable.

This is why a generator just works, it's easy enough to throw in the back whenever you need it, and you'd be blown away by how many are sitting in garages around the country, like brand new, only been used a couple of times.

 

[RLXXI]

This is why a generator just works, it's easy enough to throw in the back whenever you need it, and you'd be blown away by how many are sitting in garages around the country, like brand new, only been used a couple of times.

Actually I wouldn't be blown away by that, I have one of the very same in my garage lol. It's my backup to the whole home genset I have. I live in hurricane alley so it's a no brainer for me. Still brand new only fired up once just to make sure it ran then shut it off.

 

[ElectrifyingMe25]

Redacted post by Martin from FB:
***Martin Rebuilds Tow Rig Update / Charge While Driving News***

TLDR - In short:
-Charge while driving works

Some of you know me know and know I am huge Ford and particularly Lightning fan. I run Martin Rebuilds and host the Tech Charged podcast with Christopher Bowe and Jace Craft-Miller. Over the last couple years I've have several Lightnings at the shop and have clocked nearly 100k miles towing all over the nation and Canada. The Lightning is hands down the best towing truck (under 10k lbs) I have ever owned. This is coming from owning multiple brands and sizes of every truck made and I still stand behind my belief that the Lightning is the best. In fact, we just bought a "new to us" 23 ER Lariat max tow for the shop but a change is needed.

Charge While Driving News - As some of you know, I have been working with Zachary Scott Carpenter and Patrick Cheung on a generator that can charge the Lightning while driving down the road. Last week Zach had a very successful test logging over 700 miles running a Ford branded generator while running down the highway at 70mph. It was able to move the efficiency from 1.8 mi/kwh to an impressive 2.3 mi/kwh adding 50 miles of range out of a measly 7kw ford mobile charger. With a much larger generator we expect to nearly double the Lightnings range. See the chart below for what to expect at different speeds and generator sizes.

Genset test upside - The range added will only be limited by 2 factors, 1. How much generator you put in. 2. How big the on board charger in the Lightning is. The 2022 and 2023 Lightning have 80 amp charging so you will see up to 19kw added which means over 500 miles of range. The 2024+ Lightning has 48 amp charging so we expect to see 350 miles of range.

Genset test downside - In the interest of honesty and transparency, which is the core value of my YouTube Channel, the biggest downside I have with the generator is the noise level. To be fair, we tested this with a really loud generator and a lot can be done to quiet these things down. Inverter generators are much quieter and sound proofing can be added to reduce the noise.

My Take on Range Extending - With the shop getting more busy, increasing the volume of towing coupled with several long distance vacations a year, the need for a longer distance tow rig is real. For me, the best 2 things about the lightning are the quiet cabin and the incredible power. Those 2 things are THE reasons I have stayed with the lightning for so long. With that said, my opinion is adding a generator to the truck takes away from the Lightning experience so we have decided to change our tow rig. Instead of trying to add a generator to the Lightning or range extending it, we are going to a larger battery truck.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I am Zach the electrical engineer talked about in this post and I met Martin in Joplin the day after this test:


I just got back to Tulsa and put almost 1000mi on my truck driving while charging @ 7kW.

I am not as concerned with the noise as Martin suddenly was when he took a drive with me, but I AM 100% positive that an inverter generator with sound attenuation is a must for this project. We're still not sure how we'll release this to the public, what will be included, what we'll be selling, or what generator we'll be doing the final testing with, but I have ordered this generator:
https://www.lowes.com/pd/Westinghou...ane-Natural-Gas-Inverter-Generator/5016661947

I am also proceeding with programming many features like auto generator start/stop based on speed, modification/real time calculation of the GoM, generator fuel level reporting on the infotainment screen, full control to configure the charging rate at all times, and more. I should have more updates this weekend and more testing.

Please don't clog this thread up with stupid comments and/or safety Karen worries. Martin and I are both engineers and will fully test every aspect of this mod before we release anything to the community. I want this to be a technical brainstorming discussion and hear some other's perspectives. Martin can get on here and post his range extending estimation spreadsheet soon. Thanks, ~Zach

You are making an accessory that many Lightning owners would likely buy. I am very interested in purchasing a kit or finished product for my Lightning.

Ford should be interested in pursuing this idea too. This helps solve the problem of range anxiety.

This could be a million dollar idea.

Thanks, and keep up the hard work.

 

[ZSC100]

You are making an accessory that many Lightning owners would likely buy. I am very interested in purchasing a kit or finished product for my Lightning.

Ford should be interested in pursuing this idea too. This helps solve the problem of range anxiety.

This could be a million dollar idea.

Thanks, and keep up the hard work.

Thank you for the positive feedback, Ford definitely has multiple patents around this idea, although it's arguable whether they are enforceable at all. Patenting a range extended electric vehicle is kind of like patenting a four-wheel vehicle at this point.

 

[NW Ontario Ford Lightning]

I'd like to have your storage capacity lol. Only have 850ah at 51.2v so far. As to using them in the truck I'm going to have to say the weight would be prohibitive. You'd be "squatting" every where you went.

Each Pack is 16 x 304Ah cells, weigh a bit over 200 lbs each. and they live in the shop where a forklift or overhead hoist move things around with little effort. I move the packs one at a time, and three fit side by side against the front of the bed well.
I didn't "level" the truck, so even 1400 lbs in the bed is comfortable load in this truck, 650 isn't even noticable.

I just say "48volt" buy you're correct the cells run between 48-53 generally, bit higer during charging. I plan to add a few packs per year until I have about 300kWh (5800Ah) to run my home and business next door, plus EV charging.

A good summary of effects on an EV of weight vs trailers of various shapes is posted in this YT video - I find his results pretty much match my experience.

EV Towing

 

[NW Ontario Ford Lightning]

""
I have toyed with the idea of making a frame for the truck bed to hold 3, 15kWh 48v server rack packs, about 650 lbs.
""
45kWhr for 650lbs, that's a great power density, same weight as 3 adults for an extra 100mi of range. What truck would that "squat", I wouldn't even notice that much weight in my truck?

Now for convenience of throwing it in the truck once a week, yea, that's too much for even 2 strong men to lift, so, this would require a unique solution and an unique use case, but it's doable.

This is why a generator just works, it's easy enough to throw in the back whenever you need it, and you'd be blown away by how many are sitting in garages around the country, like brand new, only been used a couple of times.

The idea of a J1772 in the bed, with a switch/software module to allow charging while driving would be a simple yet effective solution to occational range extension:

With the connector and the software, the truck could have a generator or an extra battery pack with inverter, or a cord to a trailer with it's own generator or battery pack and inverter...ie lots of options.

Now suppose a typical Lightning owner uses their truck to daily drive to from work most of the time, and don't need any range extension most of the time. But they go on a fishing trip one week a year with a buddy and need extra energy for the boat trailer, and their favourite fishing lake has no charging near by...the bed mounted J1772 solves this once a year situation perfectly with either a genny or a battery pack or both.

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