Why isn’t the Lightning getting more of the gas F150 market?

[TaxmanHog]

5 cent a kWh energy isn't everywhere, let's be realistic when evangelizing for EV's, I'm honest (not critical) when promoting to my local market.

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[flyct]

I think it's all pretty simple.

- Lightning costs WAYYYYYYYYY more than a nicely equipped ICE F-150

Generally speaking they cost the same out the door after rebates, tax credit's etc.

Occasionally, if you are lucky, you can catch a deal when Ford offers killer deals on Lightnings. Then they cost WAAAAYYY Less then an equivalent ICE 150.

My 2024 Lightning Platinum With:

• Power Running boards,
• 3 year Blue Cruise
• Spray in Bedliner
• Mobile Power Cord
• Star White Premium Paint
• Tray Style floor liner

$91,735 MSRP
- $3,550 X Plan Discount
- $ 615 Blue Cruise Rebate
- $1,000 opt out of free charger rebate
- $2,000 Exclusive cash offer
- $9, 500 EV RCL Cash
- $,1000 Xplan Bonus Cash
- $7,500 XPlan Customer cash
-------------
$66,670 Out the door, $49,694 Residual, 0% Money Factor, Plus Lease fees
or
$66,566 net after rebate with 0% financing.

At the time I could not buy an equivalent ICE F-150 Platinum for the same $66,566 price

 

[Kev12345]

- 99% of my driving is commuting less than 100 miles per day but that one road trip per year makes it a no-go because I can't be inconvenienced even a single time waiting to charge.
- its going to burn my house down
- gas trucks are super cheap. EV's are too expensive. I only look at purchase price, not total cost of ownership!
- public chargers don't work.
- my house can't handle an EV charger. I have a hot tub, AC, electric range, dryer etc
- can't tow. I've seen the YouTube videos...
- batteries are horrible for the environment. I'm an environmentalist, that's why I drive a diesel.
- EV's will destroy the grid
- Slave labor in Congo. I fact-checked on my ethically made smartphone.
- poor resale value. we all know gas F-150's have amazing resale value.
- Elon bad man
- gas pumps always work. gasoline prices are always predictable unlike electricity.
- EV's have no soul unlike my Toyota Corolla.
- the government wants me to buy an EV. that's exactly why ill NEVER buy one. Freedom!

 

[hturnerfamily]

5 cent a kWh energy isn't everywhere, let's be realistic when evangelizing for EV's, I'm honest (not critical) when promoting to my local market.

agreed... and just like GAS prices, which are considerably HIGHER in some areas, California for example, even regular F150 owners can't 'compare' ownership in Georgia vs California - it's not a 'fair' comparison... electricity rates work the same, unfortunately.

I don't try to 'convince' anyone - it's something they will either do, or not do - it's up to them - but, it may just hit them at some point later on...

think about it - ALL of us had to make that 'jump', at some point - what WAS that point?


: our first used 2014 Nissan Leaf, in 2018, was a FANTASTIC example of an inexpensive dive into an 'all battery' vehicle - it didn't need to be our PRIMARY vehicle, either, but was really just a 'chance' for a short-commute new YOUNG DRIVER to get to high school vehicle, on his own... a teenager who could 'understand' the EV deal, and much more readily appreciate it, and be excited about never having to 'stop' to pump gas... it was 'fun', too.

it also let me stretch out my capabilities for electrical needs, wiring requirements, and how to most easily and efficiently 'get' the charging outlet near the vehicle. Also, our RVing for several years across the country contributed to the basics of understandings of Camping 'electrical' needs, and how to accommodate for them, even when the campground doesn't have the full 240v 50amp power your motorhome 'requires', adapting down to 120v 30amp, or the 120v 15/20amp, or, for fun, the campground in Alaska, where the owner's 'brother-in-law' was the 'DIY electrician'... oh my. You deal with different outlets, different power, all kinds of 'cables', adapters, and the like...

our NEXT EV was exactly the same, just in a different color, a year later... but, it then ALSO proved it's worth as a traveling-capable EV by taking us hundreds of miles to see the folks, albeit with a few extra stops along the way, even back when the charging 'infrastructure', was seemingly in it's infancy, and ESPECIALLY for "CHadeMO" vehicles, like the LEAF. These Leafs had a 70mile range, at best, down hill. 240 miles now is a DREAM!

all this was while we owned two other 'gas' cars, AND a HUGE Diesel Pusher MOTORHOME, which we even lived in off-and-on during a few years, and traveled the country, and Canada...

I was now hooked on the 'idea' of EVs

and, suddenly, just a little later, my dreams came true:
Jim Farley and Ford announced the first F150 EV Truck, the LIGHTNING .... oh my!

and, a little later, with our new EV9, we have completely and confidently moved away from anything 'gas'... and with no reason to look back. None.

 

[Grumpy2]

When asked I refer to miles/gallon. I say I get about 70 mpg at home and 30+ mpg doing 70 on the freeway.
And it is the best and cheapest truck I have ever driven.

 

[RickKeen]

Was at a family gathering today and was asked by the ICE fans there why I showed up in the Corvette and not my Lightning if I like it so much. Range too limited?

Answer: Nothing wrong with Lightning, but the weather was awesome today and nobody makes a decent, affordable, full-sized ragtop 2-seat roadster EV (yet).

 

[TaxmanHog]

agreed... and just like GAS prices, which are considerably HIGHER in some areas, California for example, even regular F150 owners can't 'compare' ownership in Georgia vs California - it's not a 'fair' comparison... electricity rates work the same, unfortunately.

I don't think there is any place where gas is 42 cents a gallon, the price disparity in Electric energy is much wider than gas.

 

[NW Ontario Ford Lightning]

The places with cheap electricity, and expensive gas are perfect for EV's.
The places with expensive electricity and cheap gas on the other hand - not so much.

I bought the Lightning knowing it is still early stages of the whole electric truck development process. It serves my needs and with our local overnight 2.8-cent/ kWh utility rates - is a no brainer for daily driving. I expect in 6-8 years there will be far more capable EV trucks, and vast changes to the charging infrastructure (pull throughs, 1-MW chargers etc) and batteries that weigh and cost less, but go much further.

Like the example of the 2010 Nissan Leaf - 70 mile range - 15 years ago...now we see EV's with 400miles+ range.
imagine 15 years after the Lightning release....1000 mile range? 15 minute charging? and cheaper to make.

 

[WXman]

#1 is definitely not true. My Platinum MSRP is basically the same as a Platinum ICE, before you get into rebates. Once you get into rebates my Plat was cheaper than my 502a Lariat 2023 PowerBoost was.

The Flash and a 302a XLT are pretty close together on price as well. The Lightning has increased in price from when it was introduced, but the ICE F-150 has increased at a greater rate it seems. As of 2024 MY, you aren't seeing "WAYYYYYY" more price difference when matching like for like.

I just threw together a 2.7L XLT F-150 303a, no other additions, and it came out to $65k MSRP. A Flash Lightning with no other additions was $73k. After listed incentives the XLT was $63k and the Flash was $64k.

And that is basically an extreme, I don't consider the 2.7L to be anywhere near a like-for-like comparison. You would have to go to the 3.5L or PowerBoost, which raises the price to $66k, or $65k after incentives.

The difference is there and in some combos I wouldn't call it negligible, but it's not miles apart. Once you add in oil changes and gas stops the line blurs further.

I also hate this "You can refill the tank in five minutes..." line I always see. It never, ever, everevereverever, took me only five minutes to refill an F-150. I even filled up generally at half a tank which would be the 15 gallons you considered atrocious (since the PB tank is 30.6 gallons). Between stopping at the station, paying (even with tap to pay), and then starting the pump and having it fill 15 gallons, it was well over 5 minutes.

It's still faster than stopping for a DCFC, but I do the DCFC thing a few times per year. I was getting gas every other week. The cumulative time I spent at gas stations was, in your words, "WAYYYYYY" greater than the time I have spent at DCFC in the last two years. Especially since you have to stand at the gas pump until it's done. I just plug in and walk inside and use the bathroom and get some food, which is another misconception. I am never "waiting" on my truck to charge. I am doing other things. I know there are some terrible people that leave gas pumps unattended while it pumps, but that will never be me. So it was just pure lost time.

Well we can agree to disagree. I've had midsize, fullsize, and HD fullsize trucks both gas and diesel. In any case I could stop at a station, pull up to the pump, swipe my debit card, and in 5 minutes or less I was pulling out of the station with another 400 to 500 miles of range.

As far as the cost of the trucks, mine stickers at just shy of $73k. Even with the rebate (which is going away) you're talking $65k. I can easily go online and build an XLT with lots of options for $10k less money.

Something else nobody seems to talk about is the future. I've seen one, maybe two guys who have 100k miles on these EV trucks now. MOST guys are at 50k miles and less. It is very premature to call EV a "superior technology" as I saw it put earlier in this thread when the technology is still in its mainstream infancy. Almost every issue that popped up on my F-250 as it neared and then passed 100k miles was something I could fix at home. I just put a new output shaft seal in it the week before I traded it off actually. ICE trucks have more parts, but they are parts that can be replaced or repaired at home at a generally low cost. What happens when a larger percentage of these EV trucks are reaching high mileage? Are guys going to attempt to replace $4k battery modules at home? Electric drive units at home? Onboard AC to DC converter units at home? I doubt it.

To me, a "superior" technology is one that does a job better at a lower total ownership cost. My Lightning cost more up front, will require 3 stops instead of 1 to get my family to our favorite camping spot with the trailer behind us, and IF I were to keep it after the lease it will almost definitely result in a higher total ownership cost as time passes.

 

[flyct]

Well we can agree to disagree. I've had midsize, fullsize, and HD fullsize trucks both gas and diesel. In any case I could stop at a station, pull up to the pump, swipe my debit card, and in 5 minutes or less I was pulling out of the station with another 400 to 500 miles of range.

As far as the cost of the trucks, mine stickers at just shy of $73k. Even with the rebate (which is going away) you're talking $65k. I can easily go online and build an XLT with lots of options for $10k less money.

Something else nobody seems to talk about is the future. I've seen one, maybe two guys who have 100k miles on these EV trucks now. MOST guys are at 50k miles and less. It is very premature to call EV a "superior technology" as I saw it put earlier in this thread when the technology is still in its mainstream infancy. Almost every issue that popped up on my F-250 as it neared and then passed 100k miles was something I could fix at home. I just put a new output shaft seal in it the week before I traded it off actually. ICE trucks have more parts, but they are parts that can be replaced or repaired at home at a generally low cost. What happens when a larger percentage of these EV trucks are reaching high mileage? Are guys going to attempt to replace $4k battery modules at home? Electric drive units at home? Onboard AC to DC converter units at home? I doubt it.

To me, a "superior" technology is one that does a job better at a lower total ownership cost. My Lightning cost more up front, will require 3 stops instead of 1 to get my family to our favorite camping spot with the trailer behind us, and IF I were to keep it after the lease it will almost definitely result in a higher total ownership cost as time passes.

I’ve also owned Full size, mid size and HD gas and diesel trucks, from Rangers to F-450s. I’ve also had at least one EV in my stable for over 10 years. Currently we only own EVs and don’t own any ICE vehicles. I don’t miss gas/diesel vehicle at all.

Here are some of my thoughts to respond.

1- I agree that a Lightning is not the best choice as a tow vehicle for a camper. I’ve towed campers with F-150s, F350s and F-450s. I went from a 150 to 350 tow vehicle because the trailer felt in charge when being towed by the 150. Eventually went to a 450 and 5th wheel camper. Great combo to travel the country.

2- If you paid MSRP less tax credit (not rebate) for a Lightning you made a bad deal. My 24 platinum Lightning had a MSRP of $91K and it cost me $66k after all discounts, rebates etc. See my previous posting in this thread.

3- When i bought my previous 2023 Lightning Lariat i couldn’t find a ICE 150 Lariat for less after rebates, credits and discounts. That $80k MSRP truck cost me $61k after rebates, credits, discounts etc. I could not buy a new ICE Lariat for that price.

4- For most (80%+) EV owners they rarely charge anywhere other than at home. I’ve driven EVs over 120,000 miles. In all that time I only needed to charge at a public station maybe 3 times. Those 3 times it took 10 minutes or less to add enough energy to give enough reserve to get home or at our cabin where we can charge.

5- Filling an ICE at a gas station may take 5 minutes or less of your time but filling my EV at home takes me less than 10 seconds of my time to plug it in.

 

[NW Ontario Ford Lightning]

ICE trucks have more parts, but they are parts that can be replaced or repaired at home at a generally low cost.

Maybe - ten speed transmission - most are not going to fix that at home,
turbo, internal engine parts, transfer case - some have the tools and know how to do these repairs, but most don't.
The fewer and simpler parts of the Lightning and the aluminum body panels may lead to these trucks running hundreds of thousands of miles, but as you say, we don't know yet.
Swapping out an electric motor will be far easier than an engine, the key will be if we can get the parts to swap with.

 

[B177y]

There is a thread that recently was started on the ICE F150 forum that is the exact counter to this thread. It's worth a look for the perspective difference

F150 vs ICE "Fuel" cost

 

[TaxmanHog]

There is a thread that recently was started on the ICE F150 forum that is the exact counter to this thread. It's worth a look for the perspective difference

F150 vs ICE "Fuel" cost

That was an interesting read

 

[Firn]

Well we can agree to disagree. I've had midsize, fullsize, and HD fullsize trucks both gas and diesel. In any case I could stop at a station, pull up to the pump, swipe my debit card, and in 5 minutes or less I was pulling out of the station with another 400 to 500 miles of range.

As far as the cost of the trucks, mine stickers at just shy of $73k. Even with the rebate (which is going away) you're talking $65k. I can easily go online and build an XLT with lots of options for $10k less money.

Something else nobody seems to talk about is the future. I've seen one, maybe two guys who have 100k miles on these EV trucks now. MOST guys are at 50k miles and less. It is very premature to call EV a "superior technology" as I saw it put earlier in this thread when the technology is still in its mainstream infancy. Almost every issue that popped up on my F-250 as it neared and then passed 100k miles was something I could fix at home. I just put a new output shaft seal in it the week before I traded it off actually. ICE trucks have more parts, but they are parts that can be replaced or repaired at home at a generally low cost. What happens when a larger percentage of these EV trucks are reaching high mileage? Are guys going to attempt to replace $4k battery modules at home? Electric drive units at home? Onboard AC to DC converter units at home? I doubt it.

To me, a "superior" technology is one that does a job better at a lower total ownership cost. My Lightning cost more up front, will require 3 stops instead of 1 to get my family to our favorite camping spot with the trailer behind us, and IF I were to keep it after the lease it will almost definitely result in a higher total ownership cost as time passes.

I bought a Pro ER and was out the door for less than MSRP of the lowest spec F150 Crew Cab 4x4 I could build and with MUCH MUCH better options. Look at the options specifically though, yes you can get loads of options on an XLT, but its still far less options than what the lightning has (and NOWHERE near the performance).

Yes, in some instances it does take longer to "fill" the lightning than a gas vehicle, although the "45 minute MINIMUM" argument isnt fully true. Did 1000 miles in one day the week after I bought it and most stops were 30-35 minutes total.

In truth though the vast majority of fillups are NOT from roadtrips. I spend far LESS time throughout the year with my EV than I did with my gas vehicles, and FAR FAR less than my premium demanding performance vehicles that required specific, out of the way, trips weekly (ok, Sam's was WAY cheaper, but required a dedicated trip every Friday after work).

As far as repairs go, I dont see this being any more difficult than the regular trucks. Yeah, changing a module sounds, scary. But so does doing a cam chain on these new ford engines, or a turbo, and the point about the 10 spd is spot on. A higher total cost of ownership isnt guaranteed, not with modern engines and transmissions running at $5k for a junkyard and $15k for new from the manufacture. The transmissions arnt far behind either. The biggest issue is sourcing used parts, something you can do for ICE vehicles. But those parts WILL be available, heck they ARE available. And once folks can reliably source that we will see more reasonable prices. As for drive units and converters? Heck yeah I'll do that at home. Ill do that before I do walnut blasting of ibtake valves, 12 hour oil pan gasket repairs, or 19 hour valve gasket replacements (granted, feeling a bit burned by BMW with those things).

 

[NW Ontario Ford Lightning]

It's worth a look for the perspective difference

you should post on that thread the link to this one - for perspective...

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