Charging While Driving Works w/ Gas Generator in Bed (Range Extending for F-150 Lightning)

[ElectrifyingMe25]

This is a great PSA for engineers

Here's something I missed. Generators, as in the ones sitting in garages all over America, and even modern inverter generators are not up for this task. Over testing the past month I have discovered that the 9kW continuous/11kW peak inverter generator I've been using can only give 5.5kW continuous on ethanol blend gas in Tulsa at 800ft above sea level, with 100deg humid air intake

I've since had discussions with people more in tune with ICE small engine performance both in the automotive world and mobile equipment world. It seems this project is going to have to wait for EFI generators to be able to get the full running power rating anywhere in the US. Luckily most of the generator companies are coming out with these as we speak. So, more testing is needed.

This is a great PSA for engineers

Here's something I missed. Generators, as in the ones sitting in garages all over America, and even modern inverter generators are not up for this task. Over testing the past month I have discovered that the 9kW continuous/11kW peak inverter generator I've been using can only give 5.5kW continuous on ethanol blend gas in Tulsa at 800ft above sea level, with 100deg humid air intake

I've since had discussions with people more in tune with ICE small engine performance both in the automotive world and mobile equipment world. It seems this project is going to have to wait for EFI generators to be able to get the full running power rating anywhere in the US. Luckily most of the generator companies are coming out with these as we speak. So, more testing is needed.

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I consulted with Grok-3 about the derating of a generator in Tulsa, OK on a 100'F day. Here is my question?:

If a carburated 9.0Kw continous-run-rated gasoline generator running on 10% ethanol gasoline is run in Tulsa, OK at 800ft above sea level, what the most Kw it can produce when the temperature is 100 degrees outside ?

ANSWER BY GROK-3:

To determine the maximum kW output of a 9.0 kW continuous-run-rated carbureted gasoline generator operating in Tulsa, OK, at 800 feet above sea level with 10% ethanol gasoline at an ambient temperature of 100°F (37.8°C), we need to account for derating due to altitude and temperature. Below is the step-by-step analysis:1. Understand Derating FactorsGenerator output is affected by environmental conditions like altitude and temperature due to reduced air density, which impacts combustion efficiency and cooling. Derating adjusts the generator’s rated output to reflect these conditions.

• Altitude Derating: At higher altitudes, lower air pressure reduces oxygen available for combustion, decreasing power output. For gasoline generators, the general guideline is a reduction of 2–3% per 1,000 feet above sea level.
• Temperature Derating: High temperatures reduce air density, further limiting combustion efficiency. Manufacturers typically guarantee full power up to 40°C (104°F), with derating of approximately 3% per 5°C above 40°C. Since 100°F (37.8°C) is below 40°C, temperature derating may not apply unless specified otherwise by the manufacturer.
• Ethanol Blend: 10% ethanol gasoline (E10) has slightly lower energy content than pure gasoline (about 3–5% less energy per unit volume), which may slightly reduce output or efficiency but is typically accounted for in the generator’s design. Specific derating for E10 is not well-documented in the sources, so we’ll assume minimal impact unless specified.

2. Altitude Derating CalculationTulsa, OK, is at 800 feet above sea level. Using the conservative end of the derating range (3% per 1,000 feet):

• Altitude derating factor: 800 / 1,000 = 0.8
• Output reduction: 0.8 × 3% = 2.4%

Thus, the generator’s output is reduced by 2.4% due to altitude.3. Temperature Derating CalculationThe ambient temperature is 100°F (37.8°C), which is below the typical threshold of 40°C (104°F) where derating begins for most generators. Therefore, no additional derating for temperature is applied unless the manufacturer specifies a lower threshold (e.g., 25°C). Since the sources indicate 40°C as the standard, we assume no temperature derating for this calculation.4. Apply Derating to Rated OutputThe generator is rated at 9.0 kW for continuous operation at standard conditions (typically sea level and 25°C). Applying only the altitude derating:

• Reduction due to altitude: 9.0 kW × 0.024 = 0.216 kW
• Maximum output: 9.0 kW − 0.216 kW = 8.784 kW

5. Consider Ethanol Blend (E10)The use of 10% ethanol gasoline may slightly reduce the energy content, potentially lowering output by 3–5%. However, since generators are typically tuned for common fuels like E10, and no specific derating factor for E10 is provided in the sources, we’ll assume the impact is minimal and already factored into the rated output. If we conservatively estimate a 3% reduction due to E10:

• Reduction due to E10: 8.784 kW × 0.03 = 0.263 kW
• Adjusted output: 8.784 kW − 0.263 kW = 8.521 kW

6. Final OutputCombining the altitude derating and a conservative estimate for E10, the maximum continuous output is approximately 8.52 kW. If we assume E10 has no additional derating beyond the generator’s design (more likely for modern generators), the output remains 8.78 kW.7. Considerations

• Manufacturer Specifications: The exact derating factors depend on the generator’s make and model. Some manufacturers provide specific derating tables or high-altitude kits to adjust the carburetor for better performance.
• Carbureted Engine: Carbureted engines are more sensitive to altitude than fuel-injected ones, as they cannot automatically adjust the air-fuel mixture. A high-altitude kit could mitigate some loss but isn’t mentioned in the query.
• Continuous vs. Peak Rating: The 9.0 kW rating is for continuous operation, so peak output might be slightly higher (e.g., 10–11 kW), but derating applies similarly. The answer focuses on continuous output as specified.

Final AnswerThe most kW the 9.0 kW carbureted gasoline generator can produce in Tulsa, OK, at 800 feet above sea level with 10% ethanol gasoline at 100°F is approximately 8.8 kW, assuming no additional derating for E10 beyond the altitude adjustment. If E10 reduces output by an additional 3%, the maximum output would be approximately 8.5 kW. For precise values, consult the generator’s manual for specific derating guidelines. (End)

Likely the generator wasn't properly rated to start with.

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[hturnerfamily]

my daily bike ride takes me on a rather long mostly flat to some downhill runs... my Son mentioned how little 'exercise' this would be, laughing...

until we got to the other end of the circuit, where the roadway was mostly UPHILL the rest of the way back home...

ugh... now he understands... no more laughing



the rule of Conservation is the same: what goes 'down' must then go back 'up', or vice versa...

...the ideas about 'adding' a simple alternator, or windmill, or those types of things to an EV have similar problems... there are no 'downhill all the way' outcomes.... you must always eventually have to come back 'up'...

the same rule means that whether you use Normal mode, or Sport mode, or Tow mode to 'capture' as much efficiencies, they will all, in the end, come out exactly the same.
- if you let the truck coast, in Normal mode, you won't Regen as much, but, you'll also carry much more speed and inertia into the upcoming hill
- if you drive in Sport mode, letting the truck capture as much Regen on the way down, you'll also be slowing to the point that you need to get BACK into the 'gas' to maintain your lost speed and inertia going back into the upcoming hill
etc.....

there is no magic pill




yet


I like the idea of thinking 'outside of the box', too... so, keep up the good work!

it's not possible, well, until it is : )

 

[Galactus55]

Check out the video by Trucked Up EVs There's no other way to describe it: This is the epitome of bureaucratic insanity. Will outdated and narrow-minded rules and a lack of updated regulations kill the advancement of ev adoption in the commercial space in Canada and the US?
Basicly what ZSC100 wants to do is illegal. Onless he gets the engine in the generator emission certified to run and charge on the road while the truck is moving.

 

[ZSC100]

Check out the video by Trucked Up EVs There's no other way to describe it: This is the epitome of bureaucratic insanity. Will outdated and narrow-minded rules and a lack of updated regulations kill the advancement of ev adoption in the commercial space in Canada and the US?
Basicly what ZSC100 wants to do is illegal. Onless he gets the engine in the generator emission certified to run and charge on the road while the truck is moving.

Kind of, just like FORScan is illegal b/c it's an illegal copy of FDRS, by two Russian guys.

What is awesome about this project is we plan to sell a wiring harness that will allow you to charge while driving. What generator the owner decides to use and what emissions it has is up to them.

 

[Galactus55]

ZSC100 said

What is awesome about this project is we plan to sell a wiring harness that will allow you to charge while driving. What generator the owner decides to use and what emissions it has is up to them.

I won't tell anyone if you don't.

 

[Traconesu]

That is what generators are designed to do (especially diesel), for month after month sometimes. You have to match the generator with the demand - running a lightly loaded diesel for long periods is bad, but If the demand is in the sweet spot you will only ever have to stop it for oil changes.

What I would rather see is a LiPo battery that could be forked into the back of the pickup when needed (or something in the trailer like systems that already exist). With a long extension cord so you could charge at two DCFCs at once

I don't use my lightning for traveling but if I did I'd like to see for come up with an extended battery that would fit perfectly in the bed and would plug into a special connector that allows that battery to parallel up with the trucks battery. You'd still be able to use your truck normally minus the height of the extended battery. When you charged your truck it would charge both batteries thinking it was just one huge battery. Of course the trucks software would have to recognize the extended battery was present. Buy extra spare extend range batteries so you could swap them out and maybe even be able to stack one on top of the other for even more range.

 

[ElectrifyingMe25]

I like it, I like it. Keep up the good work.

 

[ElectrifyingMe25]

I don't use my lightning for traveling but if I did I'd like to see for come up with an extended battery that would fit perfectly in the bed and would plug into a special connector that allows that battery to parallel up with the trucks battery. You'd still be able to use your truck normally minus the height of the extended battery. When you charged your truck it would charge both batteries thinking it was just one huge battery. Of course the trucks software would have to recognize the extended battery was present. Buy extra spare extend range batteries so you could swap them out and maybe even be able to stack one on top of the other for even more range.

Yes, we all would like the extra battery in the bed option. It's hard to believe it's not an option yet. LiFePO4 batteries are so darn cheap these days.... and they are tough, and won't burn. You could build a decent battery pack yourself or buy one ready to go. We just need someone to offer up a wire harness and receptacle for the bed.

 

[SpaceEVDriver]

Check out the video by Trucked Up EVs There's no other way to describe it: This is the epitome of bureaucratic insanity. Will outdated and narrow-minded rules and a lack of updated regulations kill the advancement of ev adoption in the commercial space in Canada and the US?
Basicly what ZSC100 wants to do is illegal. Onless he gets the engine in the generator emission certified to run and charge on the road while the truck is moving.

First, Edison is in Canada and is talking about Canadian regulations.

Second, Edison is not telling the whole story. There are plenty of on-highway certified diesel-electric series hybrids in Canada in the form of public buses. They just aren’t the cheap solution that Edison wants. So Edison, instead of finding a solution within community guidelines, is whining about those guidelines. That plays well with a certain demographic but ultimately is at least a little dishonest for them to say there are no options.

 

[ZSC100]

All: This project is progressing fast and awesome. We have switched to 100% Carplay/AA management for the system and I have automatic speed compensated start/stop working for the generator and with an inverter generator the NVH is totally acceptable. I'll make another video this weekend on a road trip to Dallas with all the new developments. Then Martin will be testing it on his truck later this month. We should have some form of this out to the community before the end of the year.

 

[bsilvertab]

All: This project is progressing fast and awesome. We have switched to 100% Carplay/AA management for the system and I have automatic speed compensated start/stop working for the generator and with an inverter generator the NVH is totally acceptable. I'll make another video this weekend on a road trip to Dallas with all the new developments. Then Martin will be testing it on his truck later this month. We should have some form of this out to the community before the end of the year.

Extremely exciting. Keep up the great work, please!

 

[TaxmanHog]

bump

 

[PJnc284]

Newer thread

(1) Charging While Driving w/ Gas Generator in Bed (Range Extender for F-150 Lightning) - Testing | Ford Lightning Forum For F-150 Lightning EV Pickup: News, Owners, Discussions, Community

 

[Lightcan]

How did you trick the car ? You put a module or modules between which modules or signal ways ? What signals did you tricked like can bus messages?

Another question is how regen is handled ? Is it handled by something naturally like on board charger just increase its output voltage to match the Regen voltage , or you do something manually ?
Is it possible if you can share more details if possible?

 

[ZSC100]

How did you trick the car ? You put a module or modules between which modules or signal ways ? What signals did you tricked like can bus messages?

Another question is how regen is handled ? Is it handled by something naturally like on board charger just increase its output voltage to match the Regen voltage , or you do something manually ?
Is it possible if you can share more details if possible?

Yes, we tricked the vehicle and onboard charger by reverse engineering the CAN messaging that takes place between the two and building an interface to control and monitor the process while driving. We are planning to sell a kit for this so the software won't be open source unless we decide to make it that way after some point in time.

HV battery voltage varies around 10V between usage and regen during normal driving conditions. The on board charger handles this just fine as it does with charging while using pro-power and the heater or air conditioner or any other auxiliary loads.

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