Home backup power in Canada

[K6CCC]

If you already have a generator receptacle installed at your house, with a simple manual main breaker safety, you can simply remove the bare ground wire at the receptacle and it will work.

To code, no.

Dangerous: yes - potentially deadly.

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[chl]

Well yeah but you get something for the additional cost compared to the HIS: a system that works!

Yes, true.

I was thinking the Sigenergy system was less expensive than the HIS...but costs more than a simple transfer switch set up.

It does get that extra 10A@240 that the PPOB bed outlet doesn't have.

 

[chl]

Dangerous: yes - potentially deadly.

And why risk it? A properly wired neutral switching transfer switch is easy peasy.

 

[Runaway Tractor]

Dangerous: yes - potentially deadly.

The people claiming this is dangerous and deadly thusfar have not provided anything to substantiate that claim. It is not deadly. It is not dangerous.

And why risk it? A properly wired neutral switching transfer switch is easy peasy.

Because that requires you to install a sub-panel and move individual loads to it. IF that is practical, great. I would agree it is the most perfectionist way to do it. But it is often NOT practical. Not everyone has the luxury of the physical space and design consideration requirements for a sub-panel. I for example do not, and cannot do such an install. It's a finished basement, in a corner, with multiple things in the way. Using a UL Listed properly installed generator inlet and interlock like millions of people do is safe and sane. Not connecting the generator (truck) ground to the house ground is an operational requirement, which in no way impacts or negates existing safety protections. None. You know this. The house is protected in the same manner it always has been. And the generator (truck) and cable are protected by the truck's GFCI.

 

[K6CCC]

The people claiming this is dangerous and deadly thusfar have not provided anything to substantiate that claim. It is not deadly. It is not dangerous.

It absolutely is dangerous and potentially deadly. The why has been explained MANY times here on this forum. @chl has drawn it out more than once. The short answer is that you potentially become part of the current path in the event of the right failure. The GFCI MIGHT keep it from killing you, but are you going to risk your life depending on the GFCI? The electrical code is there for a reason.

 

[TaxmanHog]

Welcome to the forum, take the sage advice of several members noted above...

More threads about using your ProPower system here: Electrical / Pro Power Generator

BTW, does your 2025 Flash have 2.4 KW or 9.6 KW Pro Power?

 

[Runaway Tractor]

It absolutely is dangerous and potentially deadly. The why has been explained MANY times here on this forum. @chl has drawn it out more than once. The short answer is that you potentially become part of the current path in the event of the right failure. The GFCI MIGHT keep it from killing you, but are you going to risk your life depending on the GFCI? The electrical code is there for a reason.

Nothing you just said makes any sense. No part of this scenario places any human in any current path.

• No existing protection or safety is bypassed or changed.
• The ground-neutral bond is in the panel where it always was.
• Every existing circuit breaker still operates unchanged.
• Every existing GFCI and AFCI in the house still operates unchanged.
• If you jumped in a bathtub with your toaster oven, your outcome would be no different.

CHL and I and others have discussed this many times. He has not drawn out any scenario such as whatever fantasy you described. Maybe you should draw it out and find me where doing this magically disabled some existing protection in the home.

 

[K6CCC]

The problem is that in the event of a open (or crappy connection) neutral between the truck and the panel, the body of the truck will become electrically hot. You will not find out about that until you touch the truck while standing on the ground. You are absolutely depending on the truck GFCI to keep from killing you.
There is a reason that the electrical codes require the ground connection

 

[tearitupsports]

Nothing you just said makes any sense. No part of this scenario places any human in any current path.

• No existing protection or safety is bypassed or changed.
• The ground-neutral bond is in the panel where it always was.
• Every existing circuit breaker still operates unchanged.
• Every existing GFCI and AFCI in the house still operates unchanged.
• If you jumped in a bathtub with your toaster oven, your outcome would be no different.

CHL and I and others have discussed this many times. He has not drawn out any scenario such as whatever fantasy you described. Maybe you should draw it out and find me where doing this magically disabled some existing protection in the home.

There is the possibility of a very dangerous condition. If you were to touch a grounded part of the truck and a grounded part on the house (any electrical box or metal conduit), you would become a parallel neutral conductor with actual return current going through your body. This is why the trucks GFCI trips if you don't remove the pin. Typically most GFCI are protecting equipment, which is slower reaction time than life protection. I wouldn't want to take a chance on which one the truck is.
Again if you have a neutral to ground bond at both sides, any ground wire connecting the two becomes just a parallel wire of the neutral. We are trying to not make that wire out of our body.

Now I actually have the pin removed in my personal setup, but I know never to touch the truck and my home system at the same moment. Now that I understand the risk, I am actually adding the ground pin back, and won't use the generator input with the truck.

For reference you will find posts in the past of mine, arguing that there is little risk of pulling ground pin. I have changed my mind once I reviewed it for a long time.

 

[chl]

Nothing you just said makes any sense. No part of this scenario places any human in any current path.

• No existing protection or safety is bypassed or changed.
• The ground-neutral bond is in the panel where it always was.
• Every existing circuit breaker still operates unchanged.
• Every existing GFCI and AFCI in the house still operates unchanged.
• If you jumped in a bathtub with your toaster oven, your outcome would be no different.

CHL and I and others have discussed this many times. He has not drawn out any scenario such as whatever fantasy you described. Maybe you should draw it out and find me where doing this magically disabled some existing protection in the home.

The obvious answer:

If it was safe to eliminate the ground wire from source the dwelling, it would not be an NEC requirement.

Yes the outlets with GFCI protection in the house would trip, but any circuit NOT protected by it's own GFCI would be a potential hazard since the GFCI in the Lightning would not detect a ground fault and shut off power. I don't know about your house, but all the outlets in my house and NOT GFCI's.

A couple scenarios in pictures fyi (note there are probably other scenarios, these are just the first two that come to mind):

The NEC codes are SAFETY codes.

 

[Runaway Tractor]

Yes the outlets with GFCI protection in the house would trip, but any circuit NOT protected by it's own GFCI would be a potential hazard since the GFCI in the Lightning would not detect a ground fault and shut off power. I don't know about your house, but all the outlets in my house and NOT GFCI's.

A couple scenarios in pictures fyi (note there are probably other scenarios, these are just the first two that come to mind):

These scenarios are fantasies. Please go find me the GFCI on the transformer out on the utility pole or service entrance. IT DOES NOT EXIST. Protecting the entire service entry with GFCI is not something that exists. No home has that. No commercial building has that. There is no GFCI main breaker. There is no GFCI meter box disconnect. There is no GFCI cutout on the utility pole. NO WHERE anywhere in any home is a GFCI protecting the entire place through the source. The vast majority of portable generators used to power a home do NOT have GFCI. You'd have to go specifically looking for an unusual one.

You should just note in your signature that you are an engineer and an attorney. That way people will realize how detached from reality your responses are on these matters.

 

[K6CCC]

Protecting the entire service entry with GFCI is not something that exists. No home has that. No commercial building has that.

Wrong! Specifically my church has a building wide GFCI - I know that because it tripped one day in the middle of the sermon. The entire campus went dark.

The vast majority of portable generators used to power a home do NOT have GFCI.

Guess again. Almost all modern portable generators have GFCI protection. I can't speak for permanently installed generators, but portables certainly do. Same thing for generators on RVs.

 

[Runaway Tractor]

Wrong! Specifically my church has a building wide GFCI - I know that because it tripped one day in the middle of the sermon. The entire campus went dark.

Literally why it is not a thing. Your church is not representative of normalcy. IDK why they did it but it's irrelevant to this topic.

Guess again. Almost all modern portable generators have GFCI protection. I can't speak for permanently installed generators, but portables certainly do. Same thing for generators on RVs.

No they don't. Especially not on the 240v outlet. A GFCI 120v convenience receptacle is unrelated. And no, permanent installed generators don't either.

 

[K6CCC]

Literally why it is not a thing. Your church is not representative of normalcy. IDK why they did it but it's irrelevant to this topic.

I have no way of knowing if it is normal or common, but it is the ONLY building I have the data for. So in my sample size of one, that one has a campus-wide GFCI. I have to believe that they did because they were required to - not because they just wanted to spend lots of extra money...

My point was that your statement that it does not exist in incorrect.

The other part about 240 volt generators not having GFCI protection is likely correct. However that only makes the ground connection between the generator and main panel even more important because there is no GFCI protection that might prevent you from dying in the right failure situation.

As previously stated, it's in the electrical codes for a reason - safety.

 

[chl]

These scenarios are fantasies. Please go find me the GFCI on the transformer out on the utility pole or service entrance. IT DOES NOT EXIST. Protecting the entire service entry with GFCI is not something that exists. No home has that. No commercial building has that. There is no GFCI main breaker. There is no GFCI meter box disconnect. There is no GFCI cutout on the utility pole. NO WHERE anywhere in any home is a GFCI protecting the entire place through the source. The vast majority of portable generators used to power a home do NOT have GFCI. You'd have to go specifically looking for an unusual one.

You should just note in your signature that you are an engineer and an attorney. That way people will realize how detached from reality your responses are on these matters.

Engineer, yes - ELECTRICAL ENGINEER - in touch with reality.
Lawyer, yes - PATENT LAWYER - in touch with reality.

The transformer case on the utility pole is unlikely to be touched by anyone except a utility worker wearing insulating gloves, etc....the truck parked in your driveway on wet pavement - more likely to be touched by someone's bare hands.

If the ground is wet, if your hand are wet, it and you are good conductors of electricity.

Here's another way to think about it: the bonded sub-panel problem but now with no ground wire to trip a GFCI breaker.

Your truck is bonded, it is like the main panel with one breaker.
You have it wired to your house panel which is now the sub-panel.
But your house panel is bonded.
So now if you touch any metal part of your house system, like let's say the generator input box (if it is metal) and touch the truck frame at the same time, your body is now a return path for the neutral current back to the truck. Yes the truck GFCI will pop, but you will get quite a jolt. More than if you are just touching the truck and standing on wet ground.

If you had a ground wire attached and both the truck and the house panel are bonded, the truck GFCI will pop sensing the alternate return current through the ground wire.

By cutting the ground wire and not using a neutral switching transfer switch, you are setting up the potential for a neutral return path through your body either from the ground or if you touch a metal part of your house system AND the truck directly through your body.

Besides all that, your truck is not connected to a grounding electrode system if you don't have the ground wire connected, unless you pounded one into the ground and connected your truck to it?

Anyway, the NEC is a safety code meant to protect people and property, but of course it won't protect people who ignore it.

For anyone who is interested, how to connect a bonded generator to a house per code is shown in this you tube video, the only thing that has changed is that you can use your house grounding electrode system and don't need to use a ground rod near the generator as was the case when this video was made.

The Lightning PPOB is a bonded generator.

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