Deconstructing the Lightning: Using AI to Map PIDs for Torque

[mr.Magoo]

I did... about 10kWh for a ER pack is what I am reading which is about 8% ish of a charge.

While the heater element itself is roughly 10-12kW (think max energy I've seen it use is 10.8kW), by no means does it use 10kWh to heat the battery. (at least not in the beginning and not even thoughout the charge cycle unless it's pretty cold)

As you can see from the below charge cycle from ~37% to 90% it's only using the heater (shaded green block in the bottom half) during the first 7min to get the battery over 33.8F when it closes the valve (orange line in the bottom chart) that directs the coolant to the battery.

So 7min * 9kW (on average) is only 1.05kWh

I have no idea why they're waiting a full two hours after before they enter some sort of repeatable thermal management mode.

2nd chart is from last year to show the same type of behaviour, so it's nothing new.

Sponsored

 

[Firn]

Bet you could bu



Would a possible use case be to build a preemptive problem,"pre DTC" kinda detector?

Yes. I have another thread on building a database of sensor values and how those are displayed.

This is more about getting pid values. I MUCH prefer the app torque for displays and data logging, but it is severely lacking in available pids. This was an attempt to get more pids for that app.

 

[TaxmanHog]

While the heater element itself is roughly 10-12kW (think max energy I've seen it use is 10.8kW), by no means does it use 10kWh to heat the battery. (at least not in the beginning and not even thoughout the charge cycle unless it's pretty cold)

Last night in 5° I charged for ~52 minutes, it's very likely that I used 7 kWh to warm the cabin and the HVB temperature during the session.

Notice the discrepancy for the Ford App session details screen while active and the post event record, 66.3 minus 59 net to the battery is 7.3 auxiliary & warming energy.

HVB Thermal Op's Mode timeline during charge session visit, the drop out's are while I was playing the E-HEAT off/on and adjusting the cabin temp goal value the lower you can tolerate the better for the HVB warm up.

 

[Danface]

Yes. I have another thread on building a database of sensor values and how those are displayed.

This is more about getting pid values. I MUCH prefer the app torque for displays and data logging, but it is severely lacking in available pids. This was an attempt to get more pids for that app.

If need be I can build the database, manipulate the data etc etc ... I do that all day long so well versed in how that works.

 

[mr.Magoo]

Last night in 5° I charged for ~52 minutes, it's very likely that I used 7 kWh to warm the cabin and the HVB temperature during the session.

I think you may have misunderstood my sentiment.
I wasn't saying that it is impossible for it to use 10kWh under any circumstance in absolute terms,
I was meerely trying to point out that a 10kW heater is not the same as 10kWh and that the heater is using a lot less than that.

I'm sure the behaviour is different on DCFC / L3 chargers (it's been a while since I logged one in the cold) but it is also different when the truck is left on (which I assumed the guy doesn't since he's charging at work).

If the truck is on/running when charging/plugged in, it will heat the battery to 68F, at least on L2.
Chart below is from yesterday, it wasn't plugged in from 1.30 to 5.30
Granted, it was only 20F out, but it heated the battery from 32 to 68F in 25min or roughly 3.75kWh

Plus if your cabin heat on then, yeah, it will obviously use more energy / the heater more than it would if it wasn't.

 

[Firn]

I think you may have misunderstood my sentiment.
I wasn't saying that it is impossible for it to use 10kWh under any circumstance in absolute terms,
I was meerely trying to point out that a 10kW heater is not the same as 10kWh and that the heater is using a lot less than that.

I'm sure the behaviour is different on DCFC / L3 chargers (it's been a while since I logged one in the cold) but it is also different when the truck is left on (which I assumed the guy doesn't since he's charging at work).

If the truck is on/running when charging/plugged in, it will heat the battery to 68F, at least on L2.
Chart below is from yesterday, it wasn't plugged in from 1.30 to 5.30
Granted, it was only 20F out, but it heated the battery from 32 to 68F in 25min or roughly 3.75kWh

Plus if your cabin heat on then, yeah, it will obviously use more energy / the heater more than it would if it wasn't.

It also needs to be remembered that the battery thermal management is different depending on the output of the charger. We have seen yours bring the battery up to around 43f, but with my 48a the truck prioritizes heating more, bringing the battery immediately up to 60f.

Still, if the numbers can be trusted, Google indicates just over 5kwh to bring an ER pack from 20f to 60f. We'll, 5.5kwh, just in the temp change, not accounting for inefficiencies getting there.

 

[Firn]

If need be I can build the database, manipulate the data etc etc ... I do that all day long so well versed in how that works.

https://www.f150lightningforum.com/...ance-efficiency-via-custom-pid-logging.34523/

Might take you up on helping designing it out. Right now I'm trusting Gemini to build the data into a DuckDB instance.
So far it seems to be working fairly well, but it's so hard to tell with these AI assisted tools. In fact I'm basically scrapping everything right now because of the way it was constructed the first time. Not so much because of issues, but because the structure was convoluted and I couldn't retain a mental map of how it was setup

 

[Danface]

https://www.f150lightningforum.com/...ance-efficiency-via-custom-pid-logging.34523/

Might take you up on helping designing it out. Right now I'm trusting Gemini to build the data into a DuckDB instance.
So far it seems to be working fairly well, but it's so hard to tell with these AI assisted tools. In fact I'm basically scrapping everything right now because of the way it was constructed the first time. Not so much because of issues, but because the structure was convoluted and I couldn't retain a mental map of how it was setup

Just keep the data, it can,be structured in a way that makes it easy to use.

In Oracle, CSV files can be made directly into external tables and queried and manipulated on SQL. I've written a lot of interfaces that translated/transform/cleanup data along with UNIX shell scripts so I'd be happy to take a look if you want to share some data files

 

[PJnc284]

It also needs to be remembered that the battery thermal management is different depending on the output of the charger. We have seen yours bring the battery up to around 43f, but with my 48a the truck prioritizes heating more, bringing the battery immediately up to 60f.

Still, if the numbers can be trusted, Google indicates just over 5kwh to bring an ER pack from 20f to 60f. We'll, 5.5kwh, just in the temp change, not accounting for inefficiencies getting there.

This was from my FCSP at 80 amps. Outside temp was 24F and starting battery temps were 34F min/37f max. Coolant heater was pulling about half of the power from the FCSP for a bit over 20 minutes and warmed the battery to 53F min/60F max.

 

[mr.Magoo]

Right now I'm trusting Gemini to build the data into a DuckDB instance.

I would recommend looking into InfluxDB, it's built with time series data collection in mind.

 

[mr.Magoo]

This was from my FCSP at 80 amps. Outside temp was 24F and starting

Was the truck on or off ?

 

[PJnc284]

Off

 

[Firn]

I would recommend looking into InfluxDB, it's built with time series data collection in mind.

Admittedly I didn't compare the various databases, just some quick research. That said my primary goal was analytical queries, viewing data across the entirety and trending or plotting various attributes. Although the data comes in as time series, my analytic ideas were not focused that way. I was more interested in something that could generate scatter plots for the SOC vs SOC displayed visualization, pulling the data out of the current 1.2M rows (and ~30 recorded sensors, plus ~10 more calculated or weather ones). We will see how performance scales, i only have data since August.


I won't argue the benefits of one vs the other, I don't know enough to do so. But from looking back at it, and the performance i have seen so far, I'm pretty happy.

https://stackshare.io/stackups/duckdb-vs-influxdb

 

[mr.Magoo]

It also needs to be remembered that the battery thermal management is different depending on the output of the charger. We have seen yours bring the battery up to around 43f, but with my 48a the truck prioritizes heating more, bringing the battery immediately up to 60f.

That is a very good point, you wouldn't think that 8A would make that much of a difference, but who knows what the logic was for these guys when they decided how it should work.
I mean, they can throttle / control the energy used by the PTC/heating element, so if you have a lesser charger just let it take more time if you're trying to allocate resources.

Suppose I have to locate some higher amp L2 chargers and do some tests.

 

[mr.Magoo]

Admittedly I didn't compare the various databases, just some quick research.

...

I'm pretty happy.

As the saying goes, if it works don't fix it.
I thought you were looking at options because you weren't satisfied, but if it works for you that's all that matters.

Unless of course we all decide to pool our data into a giant, common, database - now that would be pretty cool !

Sponsored